Furious and ignorant Nissan Leaf driver

^^^
As I said before, I have no fundamental issue w/PHEVs charging using whatever charging stations/equipment are compatible w/them (e.g. J1772 stations, where there's a 120 volt outlet available, RV park, etc.). I also have no issue w/people of any car type: ICEV, PHEV, EV, CNG, etc. going to check out charging stations and even briefly parking in the spot to take look, w/o leaving the vehicle unattended.

But, the problem is that OP couldn't charge using the equipment there because his car had no CHAdeMO port nor was it capable of accepting DC fast charges at all, even w/an adapter. Once he discovered the incompatibility, his vehicle should've immediately vacated the spot. It's both the right thing to do and avoids breaking CA law.

Instead, he left his incompatible vehicle unattended, ICEing the spot.

While there may be no law in NY or NJ about only occupying an EV charging spot while actively charging, there is one in CA (AB 475), where the OP and the Leaf driver are.

Some EV drivers are of the opinion that BEVs should be the only ones to be able to use public charging or that they should have priority. I disagree and that's not what this is about.

There are also the matters of courtesy such as vacating a designed EV charging spot promptly when charging is complete and leaving behind a card/contact info in case someone comes by desperately seeking a charge.

 

For what it's worth, I posted and created some flyers to help communicate in several situations, with the charging notice being the most useful (I put it up whenever I plug in).

I really hope this is a rare & extreme instance of miscommunications, as the increased tension could have easily been avoided by both parties, and not something we have to look forward to.

 

There is no need to "argue." Each time you spend hundreds of words explicating the four or five ways the present situation of EV "range anxiety" results in "charge anxiety" or full-on "charge rage," you make my case.

 

There are reasons people choose BEVs, despite some of the downsides. See Furious and ignorant Nissan Leaf driver | Page 4 | PriusChat.

Non-charging vehicles should not block designated EV charging spots any more than EVs should all get together and block gas pumps.

 

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for that to happen.

 

If all EVs got together, they MIGHT be able to block 1% of gas pumps...

 

Honestly in my opinion the ignorance of that Leaf Owner pales in comparison to the Consumer Reports article.

and if you're not a subscriber you can't even respond to his nonsense

 

Range anxiety --> charge anxiety --> charge rage!

 

Range anxiety is actually caused by two things. The driving range and refueling speed.

If you can recharge 75 miles range in a minute, we wouldn't have this kind of rage in charging stations.

 

At a typical and far more ubiquitous gas station's 5-10 gpm gasoline delivery, that's 200-400 mpm -- in a 40 mpg hybrid...

 

Yes and I believe that Leaf was mine. I have actually seen several Leafs on LI over the past 10 months. The real problem is dealer stock. There are few for sale/lease at least when I got mine. I had to search dealers all over the Island to find mine. They had 2 and one was being driven by the dealer owner's wife I was told. Sicne then I have ben back to that dealer for a batt check and no more Leafs have come in in the last 6 months.

I appreciate that you felt bad for me but I felt a lot worse for the folks sitting in mile or more long lines at the few functioning gas stations in the area for hours on end. I got my power back in 1.5 days and the charge I received that morning got me through the 1.5 days with out power as I can charge at work.

As I remember when you pulled in next to me I was very courteous and even plugged your Prius in after I was done charging as you asked. Actually I was happy to do so. Sandy effected everyone around here to some degree and if my only minor inconvenience is that I had to drive 10 minutes to the Chargepoint that you mentioned and wait about 2-2.5 hours to get filled up well it's nothing to me. Actully when I wait to charge away from home like that I bring my book and or Kindle and catch up on my reading so I stay productive.

If you had gotten there first and left no charging protocol/ettiquette card on your dash for me to contact you I would have had to wait or do the uncouteous thing and unplug you. The few times I have used public charging and left my car I always leave the charge ettiquette card on my dash so if someone comes along that needs the charge they can call me and ask if they can unplug me. Or I can indicate on the car when it's OK to uplug me.
If your camping at this chargepoint everyday becasue you work at the court complex then you should consider the charge ettiquette card as well. Since we all know the poor state of public chargeing in this area.

I stopped one other time at that Chargepoint during the day and it was ICE's by to huge SUVs (typical) and the charge point app has several reviews stating that its always ICE'd. I din't really need a charge to get where I was going but I had soem time so I thought I'd top off for an hour.

Sure I am hoping that in the near future a L3 EVSE will pop up in Suffolk but like the case in this thread I am sure it will be ICE'd most of the time as there is no laws in NY yet to penilize those who park in EV spots with ICE vehicles.

I actually very rarely use public charging stations as 1. you are correct it's few and far between in NY, especially the LI, Suffolk county area. 2. I charge mostly at home and work and that gets me where ever I want to go on the Island.
I have no range anxiety in that respect.

I have not bought a bus ticket yet...the public transportation in Suffolk is just as bad the the charging infrastructure so it wouldn't be any better.

 

Wow, yes, that makes sense. There was a similar incident at a nearby Nissan R&D facility. An unknown and unaffiliated Volt driver seems to frequent this office, which has several free-to-use level 2 charging stations.

On the day of our visit, the Volt driver was occupying the only spot in front of the CHAdeMO DC fast charger. Both LEAF drivers I attended the event with were furious at this sight, and made a point of leaving a note for the driver. I think the phenomenon captured in this thread is more common than you would think.

 

After following this thread for awhile I have noticed several systemic issues.

1. Standarization, standardization, standarization. When you pull into a gas station all gasoline pump nozzles are the same size. All diesel pump nozzles are also the same size. Even USB charging cords are starting to standarize on USB micro size. The same thing needs to happen with charging stations. The cord and connector must become standarized for public charging stations. If want to fill you car gas tank at home with a milk jug and straw so be it (IE 115V 15A cord). However all these different types of charging stations being propigated into public stations makes no sense. If the internal workings of different cars result in different charge rates that's fine, just make sure the external interface is all the same at public stations.

2. Next, there needs to be 2 business models for charging stations, just like short term and long term parking at places like airports.
Short term you get 10 minutes to charge your car and you must stay with your car much like you do when you fill up with gas. You pay $0.30/KWH for whatever amount of electricity your car is able to accept in 10 min or less. The 10 minute limit may be extended only if there is no one else waiting and the charging system has a way to know if there are other customers waiting, like take a number system. People wait to get their haircut or eat at a restaurant, but they expect to have their turn in a timely manor. Also "waiting in line" may not require you to actually be there. Phone apps or call in systems could be used to put your name on the list. But a no show and the next customer takes you place.

Long term you still pay $0.30/KWH and the first 30 min parking are free. After the first 30 minutes you pay $5/hr for parking to make up for the lost revenue from other customers not being able to use that parking/charging stall. You are allowed to leave you car unattended. Also, it would be illegal for anyone other than the owner of the car or owner/manager of the parking/charging lot to disconnect a car.

Of course the rates and time limits are just examples and could vary from place to place just like parking lot fees and gas prices do now. I do hope this can happen in a controlled fashion soon verses continued dependency of peoples' "good nature" which can get ugly in a hurry....

 

it looks like we're definitely not going to be making you supreme over Lord any time soon
I'll go out on a limb and guess - you've never owned or leased commercial property - or at least not successfully done so. Otherwise you'd factor into your perfect commercial EVSE rate plan that there are many areas that charge WELL over 50¢/kwh. That's just for starters. Several utility companies' rates, in commercial areas charge what's known as demand fees. Under those rate structures for example you have devices that pull over 50kw ( easy benchmark to hit with multiple EVSE's ), and you will have to pay a utility bill in the 4 figures ... that's right ... 4 figures EACH MONTH ... even before you pull 1 kwh of energy ... that's your bill you get hit with even before you turn on the lights ... it's just for the PRIVELAGE of having the powr available.

Maybe some areas out in BfE can afford to run a commercial enterprise on only 30¢/kwh - but not in the big city absent a nearby hydroelectric dam. Before you set your price for commercial electricity, maybe you ought to also factor in the thousands you spent for your commercial EVSE too. Oh - did you also forget maintenance costs? ... how about a little vandalism ... ever seen a J1772 plug chopped off/ missing? It happens. Oh ... maybe throw in closed circuit cameras to protect your investment ... that's just off the top of my head. 30¢/kWh? God forbid you might actually even consider throwing in a little profit for your charging enterprise. You DO want to make a profit, don't your? What ... you mean you don't mind earning ONLY 7¢ - 8¢ kWh? - That's very charitable of you .... being able to live on only 84¢ (presuming 12hr/day hookups) per day per charger. You may break even after only a decade or so. Gee, makes me wonder why more EVSE's aren't being installed!

Joking aside ... heck even our residential area pays more than 30¢ at tier 4 and we go up to tier 5 on our residential rate structure. But hey Bob, thanks for trying.

 

Uhm while I respect your perspective, your perspective is limited. If I had an EV or plug-in hybrid I could pull up to multiple free courtesy charging stations in our local area. As far as charing at home, it would cost me $0.10 to charge at night. I would also likely install wind and solar at home and charge off the grid as much as possible.
I even mentioned in my post that the price and times would be different in different areas so I don't understand why you focused on what I referred to as "examples".
However you did miss my point.
1. One and only one type of charing port at public charging stations nationwide.
2. Two types of charging locations. One to quick top off to get to home, work or other destinations. Second to park and charge while you do other things.
Without a consitent simple infrastructure the money saved by drivng a EV or plug-in is going to be lost to lawsuits, damaged property, and injuries due to differences in opinions about how charging stations are to be used and which cars can use which stations.
Personally I would like see every major store and business to have charging stations like parking meters available at every parking place. It makes the most sense to be charging while you are busy doing other things while your car is parked.
I would even take this to the next step that parking lots like this must be powered from onsite wind, solar or other renewable sources.

 

Like you say ... perspectives are limited. there are some areas with little wind and little sun. MY perspective is that ANY perspective (when it comes to suggesting WAYS to stop the OP's angry charge stall/abusers) will only be for individual regions.
(btw ... some people are just angry ANYWAY ... and will find a way to hate - no matter what systems are set up ... parking / charging / length of stay / what ever ... there IS no one size fits all & cures ill of the angry)

On J772's - some plugin's only charge at a paltry 1kW/hour which typically yields only/appx 1 mile per 20 minutes ... not worth the effort. Then, some can pull 40kW/hour ... which typically represents a HUGE income stream loss when plugin's just hang out / camp in a charge stall, though they only needed 10 minutes of juice to travel the 25 miles worth of juice they received. Fees / time in the stall / penalties etc have to take a bunch of variables. Do you have the same legal requirements of OTHER state's issues/laws? No - each state's public standards are valued differently. If states are all different for rules pertaining to speed, hunting, marriage, building height etc ... do you really think we'll have a universal standard for plugin charge rules? Yep ... that's my perspective.

I see that the whole thread just became moot - as the OP has since realized his post was "jumping the gun" . . . jumping the gun - that's how/why lots of hot tempered folks get started ... not understanding what's going on. You never know what someone else is going through, when folks lash out at you. Once that starts ... you either add to it, or hopefully diffuse it ... maybe say "sorry" ... even if/when we "know" we're in the right. oh wait ... that's crazy talk ... showing a little grace

Sure they can. 75 or even 275 miles in a minute won't matter if/when someone just camps in a charge spot. Again - rage comes from lack of showing a little grace during others failing to meet our "expectations". It doesn't end just because it might be easier for the anxious/enraged.

Anxiety isn't just from EV's running low on electricity either . . . . there's also the phenomena of what I call, "Gas Anxiety".

Gas anxiety happens when a plug-in hybrid driver thinks about running out of EV range while out driving around on errands ... maybe picking up a burger at McDonalds.

"Oh LOOK ... a charger just down the street that's FREEeeeee !! ... I'll plug in there, and pick up a few kilowatts while I saunter on down to the end of the block, and then suck down a quarter pounder & fries then slowly walk back ... WOO HOO. Who cares if EV's run out."​

Gas anxiety ... it's when the plugin hybrid worries about missing an opportunity to mooch free juice ... driving around on someone else's dime .... and not using any gas. Gas anxiety ... brought on at the thought of the ICE turning on. These are often the same folks who freak-out (rage/anxiety) when a commercial EVSE owner charges them a few dimes more per kWh than the moocher has to pay at home. That free charger suddenly becomes worthless, once the moocher has to shell out a whopping $2/hour or so.
For those suffering from gas anxiety - it's not about clean air ... oil wars ... military budget ... national debt ... U.S. made electrons ... fuel shortages ... respiratory/health ... conservation ... leaving resources for the next generation. Nope. All too frequently it's about driving on the cheep. Hey - what ever floats their boat.
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For those who missed it, the original version of the OP's story is at Furious and ignorant Nissan Leaf driver | PriusChat.

 

Oh my!

Reading this thread causes me to be glad that I do all of my charging in my garage. The base of anger and lack of a need to cooperate just makes it very unlikely that there will be a happy medium. Either charging locations will be underused or overused. The underused stations will help few people and justify reduction of the number of charging stations and this shows what happens when the demand exceeds the supply whether it is used or just blocked.

We certainly cannot depend upon public charging. Those who do are too likely to be disappointed.

We are our own worst enemies.

 

Realistically, most people are going to do 90% or more of their charging at home and work (if available) for the next decade or so. At home, you own it. At work its between you, your fellow EV employees and the employers policy.

All other charging stations, IMO, fall into two categories: free and pay. Anyone thinking they are going to make money on a pay station probably doesn't understand the economics. Or they got it for free (or near free) from a DOE grant (or similar) and just don't want to pay for the electricity. Except for a few well placed chargers it will be a long long time before it will really be profitable to pay for installation, pay for the charger, pay for maintenance, pay for the electricity and recoup with a few dollars per day of usage fees.

Free is what "most" public chargers should be if we want EV/PHEV to become commonplace enough for their to be enough drivers so there can be enough stations so anyone can make money at it.

It takes more power to run an escalator than an EV charger. Maybe malls should install a toll box on escalators and elevators. The EV charging bill for a location such as a mall is in the 4th or 5th decimal point of the bill, I would imagine. They spend more on wasted extra lighting in parking structures during bright daylight rather than properly dim or turn off lighting.

Mike

 

Or should the EV be the handle and the charging station the razor blade?