Chevrolet Volt tops Sierra Club ranking of plug-in hybrids

I am more impressed with 'conquest' of non-hybrids. The 3.2% share of the market in June . . . disappointing but better than the under 3% we had seen for so many years. This is why I keep calling for more, fuel efficient options.

Bob Wilson

 

I guess I showboat my efficiency breakdown of each fuel too.

 

Said I agree with that, and it is puzzling why the EV data is only presented as the combined. Avoid consumer data overload? The window sticker even leaves the gas city and highway off.

What is the PPI's max acceleration before the ICE kicks in? The city EPA test is 3.3mph/sec, actually 0.1 more that the highway.

 

I would not want to catch up either if it means selling a $40,000 car for mid-20's. In this case, leading means losing even more money on every car you sell. Why would anybody want to play that game?

And may want to look at what others would consider "leading"
http://bestsellingcarsblog.com/2013/03/20/world-full-year-2012-discover-the-top-500-best-selling-models/
#39 Toyota Prius 389,932

#57 Toyota Prius c/Aqua 313,437

#115 Toyota Prius a/+/v 184,838

#432 Chevrolet Volt/Opel Ampera 31,400

 

And Toyota made money on the first generation Prius?

Where does the PPI fall on that list?

There is no denying Toyota leads in hybrids, but when it comes to anything with a plug, they apparently want nothing to do with it. The Rav4 EV is a conversion by Tesla to meet California requirements. The eQ was cancelled because it was subpar to the competion, and because 'dealers don't want to sell EVs'. Toyota announced they aren't going to sell EVs in Europe. They have a PHV concept with 40 mile range, but we hear more about their FCV than whether it is going to production. FCVs are also a California requirement, so they have no problem doing their own work on that front.

I wonder how much oil and NG Toyota has in their portfolio?

 

Wouldn't expect Chevy Volt to make money yet, but ev sales numbers of all plug-ins do not support the arguments in this thread that it is only PIP that is not selling.

"If you build it, they will buy it" does not apply to plug-ins, and the eQ was cancelled because it was not going to sell either. I think Toyota made the decision that GM is now making with the ELR; a limited production, single year run. First Test ELRs Roll Off The Line | Page 3 | PriusChat

 

The arguments in this thread are only focusing on the plug in hybrid market, and mostly in comparison to the Volt. They are the only PHV that have been out over a year. The Energis are new, and it appears they will be selling on par with the PPI, if not surpassing it. Tesla and Nissan are the only serious BEV manufacturers, and they are outselling the PPI.

The low sales are partly because the PPI isn't available nationwide. It was out available for a year in Feb. Delaying even expansion to some of the other large Prius markets is puzzling.

It's more, "we have 90 built, let's make some money on them instead of crushing them." The eQ wasn't going to sell because it was the poorest BEV to be produced. Poorest is too harsh. It was one of the most efficient, but that doesn't make up for the 50 mile range and price. The Smart ED has 12 miles more range, and has a pre-incentive price $25000. Plus, it is planned to be available nationwide.

 

Poorest is not harsh at all. Toyota created these marketing scenarios without doing any market research and decided the EV people wanted was a very small one with very small range, 50 miles by epa standards.

Last year they saw the the imev was not selling, and probably had a chance to actually listen to people who said even the 2012 leaf's 73 miles was not enough. It was proper to pull the plug. No use promoting an embarrassment. It looks poor compared to the i-mev, let alone the spark, volt, leaf, fit evs.

I have driven the smart EV as part of car2go car sharing program. Its great for car sharing programs for special spots downtown. Take away the rent by the minute with parking privileges, it is a much worse package than the leaf. Toyota doesn't have a sharing program so it EQ doesn't make much sense in America.

 

Would prefer Fiat 500e or Fit ev instead of eQ or Smart ev. An example is the Ford Fusion Energi, Phev-20/~40 mpg on regular gas; good numbers imo, available but not selling yet. Another is the Rav4 ev, where are all those who have been asking for the Rav4 ev. I actually do not think PIP would sell more if it had more ev range, although availability would help. As for the Mitsubishi Outlander Phev-25, nice! Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV May Be Slightly Delayed For US, But Still Coming In 2014

 

The 2013 Smart ED has a more powerful motor and slightly longer range than the ones available in car share programs. With longer range and lower price than an iMiEV, it might find a niche with those with a short commute. Leaf would be a better choice, but it doesn't come as a convertible. Smart is also offering a battery rental program. It's $80 a month and includes annual battery maintenance and a 10 year warrantee on the battery's capacity. No word on how much it lowers the car price, but I imagine the buyer loses out on the federal tax incentives.

I just see Toyota's handling of the eQ has evidence that they aren't taking a plug in market seriously.

I like the Fiat style, but the 500e is California only. The Fit has a wider but still limited market. Perhaps we'll see a real BEV contender from Honda after their data gathering with the Fit EV leases. Smart plans to have the ED available nationwide by the end of the year.

The people asking for the Rav4 might live outside California. I think most of those outside Ca either settled for a Leaf or upgraded to a Tesla. Their clamoring did get the new one built. Otherwise Toyota would be stuck with the eQ as a compliance vehicle.

 

The Caddy Elr is fantastic, but should come out too expensive to sell in any significant numbers. GM could have given this SUV a shot at the Volt powertrain instead of the Elr, just like Tesla is doing with the Model X. In a few years with improved battery tech, these cars continue as pure BEV.

 

I imagine the ELR was cheaper to develop than the the Volt wagon would be. It also didn't require price reductions and improvements in the batteries.

If GM can pull off a 5 seater Volt as rumored for the next generation, I think the wagon wouldn't be far behind.

 

Compared to what other traditional automaker?

Nissan is basically alone. None of the others have made any dent in the market.

We also know that attacking middle-market head on rather than approaching via a niche pretty much always gets the same assessment. So, it's somewhat of a red herring until the cost drops enough to make either viable for high-volume.

Rumors have proven disappointing more often than not, hence the OPUD reputation. There are obvious tradeoffs to deal with as well.

The key continues to be knowing the market. For whom will the next generation be?

 

well they did.. because of that investment you now have XXX numbers of prius worldwide

we still have to see what will happen to the volt/ampera..... its way overpriced what was not really the case with t he first prius ( not so much )

 

I said Toyota wasn't serious, because they half assed the market research, or simply give it any thought, and actually believed a small, pricey, 50 mile range BEV would be enough to actually sell.

I know the others are also only in it because of Ca regulations. They, however, are at least aiming to offer something with the range of the Leaf. Some even offer their BEVs outside the west coast when it doesn't benefit CA regs. Some are even available in Europe.

If all the rumors originated from GM, you might have a point.

Since, they only rumor from GM is that they want to lower the price, my guess on whom it is aimed at is a greater percentage of the population that want a day to day car that allows the greatest shift of gasoline miles to electric.

But I'm not GM.

That was the point of my post. Factoring in the R&D costs, the first generation Prius lost money or made very little. The pay back on the investment started with the gen2 and beyond.

Factoring in the R&D, the Volt is losing money per sale. GM is critized for this, with the critics not knowing or ignoring that this is a long term investment, and returns will not be seen with the first generation.

GM never kicked my puppy, so I'm content to wait and see.

 

Exactly, it was only well into the gen II that the prius became profitable, but people want these plug-ins to be profitable right off the bat and pay up all of their R&D, its just crazy. We need to wait until the second generation.

One plug in company is in its second generation - Tesla, and it looks like it is profitable on a variable cost basis. In fact it is so profitable it will likely be able to pay off its old R&D in not that many years. Its market cap reflects this high potential future profitability.

I may not remember things correctly, but wasn't the original prius given a bigger price premium than the volt is now. Prices on the volt have come down in reaction to the leaf price drop and lower costs, I'm not sure about the ampera in Europe.

Chevy Cuts Pricing for the Volt – News – Car and Driver | Car and Driver Blog

Part of the confusion about prius premium and volt premium, is miti gave the goernment money directly to toyota. To see the price after government subsidies you need to look at the lease price, or the purchase price net of the tax credit. In states like California the premium is even lower. The original prius was not nearly as nice as a new volt.

 

Agreed. The original Prius did not have GPS, did not even have cruise control...it was very basic. But, IIRC it only cost $19,900. There was no GPS...but it did have buttons for it. Cruise control was available as an aftermarket upgrade sometime later.

Mike

 

Although $20,000 in 2000 is worth $27,000 dollars today due to inflation.

 

The 2001 Camry base price was $17,700. The Corolla and Echo were similar is size to that Prius. Their starting prices were $12,600 and $10,000, respectively. AC, power windows and locks, and a cassette deck are the major standard features the Prius had over them. The Camry LE has them. It was $2,700 more, but also got a CD player and cruise control.

In no way claiming the Volt isn't pricey, but $5,000 to $7,000 then would be $6,700 to $9,200 today. When adjusted for inflation, the 2001 Prius cost more than a 2013 Prius 3.

 

That's over $26K when adjusted for inflation from 2000. In 2001 the prius was 3 years old, like the volt will be in december. 0-60 IIRC was 12 something, very slow by today's standards, and internal materials were of much lower quality than the volt, which now sells for less than $30K.

Competition is much hotter than it was for the original prius, and the current prius liftback puts the original one to shame in many ways, but is no more expensive when adjusted for inflation. Give these cars a chance, like we did the prius. It really was quite expensive for its time.