BMW i3 starts near $35,000; NA first deliveries January 2014

I am thinking of A, B, C Pillars and roof made of CFRP, but don't know cost and how would body shops deal with repair.

Too expensive, too slow for mass produced vehicles; Hackenberg: Carbon Fiber Still Too Slow For Mass Produced Cars, But Getting There | The Truth About Cars

B-segment Yaris sized concept; 25% weight reduction, high tensile strength materials and size of components.

 

I have a question about this i3 and its Rex.........does anyone know the answer

I understand that you get 'degraded' performance once the battery is depleted, so it's basically the 1st ~100 miles at 'full performance' and the next 100 in 'limp-mode'.

But is it possible to turn on the Rex manually if you know ahead of time you will need it, as opposed to having it turn on automatically when you 'Uh-Oh' run out of EV range?

For example, if I were to drive from Santa Cruz to Santa Maria (195 miles), could I turn on the Rex immediately upon leaving, so that I get the full / highway-speed capable performance the entire way?
That sure would be a whole lot better than driving 100 miles normally, then limping the remaining 95.

 

2014 BMW i3 First Drive on Edmunds.com

 

Seems like an obvious yes. Along that line though, I wonder if the generator output has to go through the battery to reach the wheels. If so, then the car is a true serial hybrid, meaning a good 15% extra conversion loss of energy from the generator to the wheels. Figure 20 kW output to the wheels from the generator.

By the way, steady state power demands for the Prius at 65 mph on level ground are about 15 kW. So turning on the generator prior to battery depletion should have no trouble keeping the battery charged for all but the most unusual course.

 

there's still one other option .... At least if you're on a 150 mile trip. Since it can quick charge you could stop for 10 or 15 minutes and pick up an additional 30 - 35 percent charge to finish a 150 mile trip. That way you don't have to use any gas at all . On a longer trip like 200 miles you simply have to stop to charge a bit longer
.

 

According to bmw it will have decreased performance. This is because the CARB BEx concept needs to have decreased performance.

The car has everything in it to have full performance with just a little change of software. BMW will get more BEV credits and white HOV stickers by having the software not work for optimum performance. We don't know yet what the user will be able to do to disable this software, but its likely that someone chips it if bmw doesn't provide a work around.

 

First I would say that VW's interview about CFRP not being ready for mass production will be tested by this i3, since it is slated to be a mass produced car. If BMW can pull it off, than it says it is ready for mass production. That is the possible breakthrough of this car.

Next I watched the youtube video, and was suprised at the tone defness of toyota. Very light cars are expensive. They push the limits. The yaris is cheap, at least that is the reputation, and not in a good way. It looks like they are taking a cheap car, making it light, then removing power and putting it at 2 cyclinders. I don't understand.

Hoods, roofs, and suspensions are the place that more carbon fiber will be used. These are spots that aluminum started showing up. Unless you need it for handling or acceleration, CFRP is much more expensive than simply increasing the ice hp and using aluminum in a conventional car. In the BMW, they are trying to get handling better than their mini bev prototypes, and it seems felt the need to really push the boundries. If this works it may reduce cost of cf.

 

This is true....but then, you'd have to make sure there is a fast DC charger at almost the exact 100-mile point. A standard 240v would simply make what is otherwise a relatively short road trip inconvenient and unpractical. This also makes it much harder to deploy then Tesla's superchargers (which could conceivably be as far as 200 miles apart).
Add to that it can't be any DC charger, but must be the SAE combo charger, of which I don't think there is more than a handful -if any- in the U.S.

It's a shame....but it appears that the i3's Rex is truly 'emergency only'.

 

Hmmm......good to know. I do not understand the logic behind this regulation, and hearing about it makes me more and more suspicious of CARB's judgement. There could be the unintended consequence that this would actually make the i3 less desirable, and reduce sales slightly (unless a quick work-around hack is found, as you mentioned).
At any rate, it would seem to me that the extremely short range in ICE mode (having to stop every 100 miles for gas) would make it impractical enough (and deter gas use, if that is the law's intention), that there would have been no need to also make the performance degraded.

 

Here is all Ifound, and yes I think this is not rational
Green Car Congress: California’s new ZEV rule introduces the BEVx; ARB staff expects these vehicles to play a longer-term role than plug-in hybrids

the i3 would get 2.5 ZEV credits like the leaf as they are in the same catagory of electric range. The tesla S gets 4 credits because of range, but ... if they can demonstrate the battery quick swap to carb they get 7 credits. Fuel cell cars get 7 credits. I think its a bizzare scheme.

CARB has a number of rules against PHEV, and wanted to loosen them, but they don't want you to use the ice in a BEVx. They would rather you own 2 cars and use the other one on longer trips. How this helps clean the air in california I do not know. Fiat is including a certain number of rental car days a year with their BEV. They realized that even with 7 credits for fuel cells they would not reach their goals as fuel calls were not being produced and people were buying phevs. A rational system would allow partial credit for PHEV perhaps based on utilization. How about 2 credits for a 200 mile+ bev or fcv, 1 credit for a 70+ mile plug in, .5 credit for a 30 mile plug in, 0.25 credit for a 10 mile plug in. Remove the extra waranty requirements from phev versus bevs. I picked 30 miles because that is the number of mile BMW and CARB independantly found the average california driver goes on a typical day.

 

Great info, thanks. Typical case of car-by-committee.....nothing rational about it that I can think of, other than CARB views PHEVs as a delaying, interim step on the way to FCVs and BEVs w./ swap.

I was interested in requirement #2:
"engine operation cannot occur until the battery charge has been depleted to the charge-sustaining lower limit"


I wonder if CARB actually defines the exact SOC % for "lower limit". If not, I don't see why any automaker could not define it themselves at 50% (or higher), and as SageBrush said above, that would ensure full performance for all but the most challenging routes, no "limp-mode" needed.

 

That req does sound problematic. If the manufacturer was to simply set a higher SOC it would effectively waste battery capacity -- not a good idea.

I imagine CARB wanted to avoid a case where people used fossil fuels out of convenience and their solution was to hobble the CS mode. If that is true I hope they reconsider and find a different motivator.

 

Yep, that's all I can figure. This committee is proud that they have a political agenda to make sure to help fuel fcv's. The phevs can get in the way of that agenda. I'm sure bmw politiced them to get them to call the thing a bev, and had to put up with the strange rules.

No but this crazy BEVx takes your SOC distance to see if you have made your fuel tank small enough. I expect that once these things are in the wild someone will sell you a chip to change the software so that you can get full performance out of the range extender mode. Other than looks and the software limitations it may be a great car. I am curious how the epa rates the mpge.

 

By the way, even if the car CS mode is hobbled as bad as is feared, 20 kW output at the motor shaft is good for 75 mph on level road in the G2 Prius*

*data from Wayne Brown

 

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Just 2 Weeks To Its Reveal - More BMW i3 - CleanMPG Forums​

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I think we should wait for real tests and the epa to figure out the mpg for the range extender. I don't think it will be good at high speed, as it appears to certify BEVx compliance they won't be able to raise the SOC and give more electric assist. If you are only using it for limp mode, mpg shouldn't matter, but I have a feeling people will want to use it more. That means performance and economy could be improved in software, it just can't be official bmw software, or it won't qualify for the white stickers.

I would add other reviews seem to disagree with clean mpg about this being up to the bmw standards of handling. It has low rolling resistance 155/70 R19 tires. These are really skinny giving a smaller contact patch. That should increase fuel economy, but hurts high speed handling. The car is also reported to complain when going fast. Great accelerataltion up to 40 mpg, then it is not typical bmw. This car likely will appeal to people looking for a combination of luxury and energy economy, not the ultimate driving machine. That may be a really good fit, and a good place for bmw to g.

I think the likely problems are if it really pulls off the carbon fiber manufacturing. Whether its looks detract, which I expect they will, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Is the price too high for a 100 mile bev that seats 4 instead of 5. I think this is a great first attempt and may things go in the right direction. If it had a fully functional range extender, price would likely not be as much of an issue.

 

Ya, good point, I overlooked this. Spending more $$ on batteries and lugging around extra weight without using it wouldn't make a lot of sense. Of course, the i3 already has 4 kwh more than is necessary to meet the full $7500 credit, but they are probably not deep-cycling to prolong longevity, a'la Volt.

 

Well, the CleanMPG link posted by Sergiospi says i3 has 34 hp, which is about 25.3 kW, of course not all of that is shaft hp. If Prius can do 75mph @ 20 kW, then the i3, which probably has a higher Cd, should do 60-65mph @ 20-25 kW?

I guess the real question I want to know is: What is the max speed in CS mode?

 

When I have a discharged battery in the prius, its 98 hp ice struggles a little accelerating on highway hills. Its a good thing that this rarely happens, usually on very hot days when the ac drains the battery. the ice is powerful enough for these times, but drop it to less than half and I would not be happy. Remember there are hills and acceleration and sometimes both need to be done at the same time. Reduced performance is accelerating up to speed and taking hills. I'm sure that the beemer is fine on flat highway at 65 mph. Keeping about 2 kwh in reserve for accelerations and hills would likely make a world of difference. Until they give people a US version to test we won't know how much degradation, or how much SOC is in reserve. It may be fine, it might be a dog. I am guessing bmw is still playing with the software.

 

Ya, I would tend to agree with you.......unless CARB also put in a reg. saying something to the effect of "Rex can only maintain SOC and not re-charge battery, ensuring BEVx performs like a dog under high load conditions"