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I get terrific mpg, but I sure don't understand it.

Discussion in 'Prius c Fuel Economy' started by MustangConvert, Jul 27, 2013.

  1. MustangConvert

    MustangConvert Junior Member

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    Two situations have me flummoxed.

    Situation #1
    Today I drove 3 trips. Pulse and glide, and foot off the gas going down hills when possible. There are lots of hills and a few traffic lights. No real city driving, just frontage roads.

    Trip 1--Starts with the engine cold. Windows down and AC off. The starting mpg is 1 mpg in EV. I drove 8.3 miles at varied speeds from <10 mph to around 55. Average mpg = mid 50s.

    Trip 2--The car sits 5-10 minutes after trip 1. Windows down and AC off. The starting mpg is 99.9 mpg in EV. I drove 18.2 miles at varied speeds from <10 mph to around 55. Average mpg = mid 85.2!!! Holy Toledo!!! This is my personal best since I bought the car a week ago. I assume that it is because the engine was warmed up that the mileage improved so dramatically.

    Trip 3--Now I am excited after getting 85.2 on the last trip.The car sits 10-15 minutes after trip 1. The starting mpg is 99.9 mpg in EV. This suggests to me that the engine is still warmed up. But gas mileage drops significantly rather quickly; as the weather is getting hot, I have the AC on, but quickly turn it off when I see how the gas mileage has dropped, but the AC turned off does not improve things. I drove 16.4 miles at varied speeds from <10 mph to around 55. Average mpg=mid 50s again.

    I don't understand how with driving conditions virtually the same I could get 85.2 on trip 2 and only in the 50s on trip 3.

    Situation #2
    When the engine is cold, even without my foot on the gas, why does the trip start out with poor gas mileage? After all, I am not using gas any gas at all. Shouldn't it start out with 99.9 mpg just like when warm, and then drop only after I give it some gas?
     
  2. The Electric Me

    The Electric Me Go Speed Go!

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    I guess my suggestion is don't get too worked up about gas mileage on specific trips. I pay attention to it, but basically what I care about is what my entire tank average happens to become.

    And yes, if you are on full EV..your MPG should be maxed...because basically the vehicle isn't using gasoline at all. But if the vehicle is cold and/or the battery charge is low, the vehicle won't stay in EV mode.

    My Prius never starts out in the morning remaining in EV very long. When I first start it, it will EV while I back up, but the engine pretty quickly kicks in, even at low speed, because The Prius wants to warm up the engine, and/or charge the battery.

    But I don't know how the condition could exist where you say you are in full EV operation, but are only getting 1 mpg.
     
  3. MustangConvert

    MustangConvert Junior Member

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    I live in a rural subdivision with little traffic. It is easy to creep along for a little while the HSI bar screen shows the EV drive indicator lamp is on. The Energy Monitor screen display will likewise indicate that the ICE is not propelling the vehicle; mpg will start at 1 mpg and gradually increase. If the vehicle is warmed up, mpg will show as 99.9 mpg. This is routine with the car.
     
  4. css28

    css28 Senior Member

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    So the EV drive lamp is indicating the the engine isn't propelling the vehicle but I bet it's running to warm up at that stage--thus your mileage reading.

    As for the differences between the earlier trips, it's likely that the 85+ mpg trip accomplished that with a net decrease in battery charge which got made up in the next trip.

    It's not magic but it can be startling until you get used to it.
     
  5. MustangConvert

    MustangConvert Junior Member

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    You mean to say that charging the battery makes gas mileage lower?
     
  6. css28

    css28 Senior Member

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    Sure, and using the battery makes the gas mileage higher. This isn't an electric vehicle. Everything has to come from the engine burning gas, in the long run.

    When you're charging the battery, most of the energy gets stored but some gets lost to heat (since charging isn't 100% efficient).

    When the car is assisting the gasoline engine with the electric motor it's converting some of the battery charge to work done by the motor, but some gets lost again (since the electric motor isn't 100% efficient).

    EV mode is worthwhile in situations where the engine wouldn't be efficiently used (slow subdivision streets, parking lots, stop and go traffic) and the car will use it in these cases more or less automatically.
    If you force EV mode (by using the EV button) longer than the car would use it by default, you're forcing it to drain the main battery somewhat. That's more work the engine will have to do later on to bring the battery back to where it was.

    You know what I use the EV button for? Moving the car in and out of the garage without the engine starting. I can only do this in the warmer seasons because below a certain temperature the car won't even allow that.

    There's a lot of information searchable on this site (most of it for the main hatchback Prius, but still applicable to your car). Specifically visit stickies about the stages that the car must go through during warmup.

    Have fun!
     
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  7. ursle

    ursle Gas miser

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    Might not help, but, the first 5 miles warm up the car, if the hybrid battery was full and helps propel, great, but then it's depleted and needs a recharge, anyway, so after 5 miles the mileage should be excellent, then trip 3, the hybrid battery is depleted, the ice must propel the car and charge the hybrid, so the mileage goes down, it's still better than a poke in the eye;)

    Simply driving the speed limit is all it takes,btw
     
  8. Former Member 68813

    Former Member 68813 Senior Member

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    Yap, forcing EV gives short term gains and poor long term average.
     
  9. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    How much elevation change did each trip have?
     
  10. MustangConvert

    MustangConvert Junior Member

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    There are some good sized hills. Trip #2 was roughly a composite of trips #1 and #3 together , only going in the opposite direction(#1 and #3 were east to west, and # 2 was west to east). It is very difficult to say whether one direction has more uphill than the other.
     
  11. cwerdna

    cwerdna Senior Member

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  12. MustangConvert

    MustangConvert Junior Member

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    These are the starting and ending elevations for each trip.
    trip #1: 1095 feet to 721 feet-- mpg in mid 50s
    trip #2: 721 feet to 1197 feet-- mpg 85.2
    trip #3: 1197 feet to 1095 feet-- mpg in mid 50s

    I'll post the profiles later. I need to download Google Earth 1st.
     
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  13. css28

    css28 Senior Member

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    If you haven't already, consider enrolling with Fuelly.com.
    Due to the state of charge and altitude fluctuations your best indicator is calculated mileage over several fill-ups.
     
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  14. MustangConvert

    MustangConvert Junior Member

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    I have learned a lot from the responses in this thread. Thank you.
    I am posting below the elevations for the 2 trips when the car started out warmed up. These elevations explain a lot. I hadn't realized this before. I suspect that the elevation difference might be the prime factor more so than the charging of the battery.

    Trip 2 elevation profile--read from left to right--85.2 mpg:
    DS library to Academy elevations.jpg

    Trip 3 elevation profile--read from left to right--mid 50s mpg:
    Academy to Home elevations.jpg
     
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  15. css28

    css28 Senior Member

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    I commute 20 miles each way. My employer is 300 ft lower than home. I generally get about 10% - 15% better mileage going to work than coming home.
     
  16. PriusCinBlack

    PriusCinBlack Member

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    Trip 3 it is likely your battery was already drained before you shut off the A/C (from both A/C use, and the small amount of power used off the battery when gliding). The engine probably had to turn on for a while to recharge. If you were truly gliding (i.e., being in EV but not using battery power in EV), keep doing that. It will give you the best mpg overall. Where you get into trouble and start getting inefficient is when you use the EV to propel the car (in other words, it's simply shutting the engine off while still gaining distance that gets the Prius awesome in-town mpg- it's using the battery that creates inefficiency). Try giving the car a little bit of extra recharge when gliding, too.

    In your "Second situation," even when your foot is not on the gas pedal the engine is running if you just started the car and the engine is cold. You're not in EV and you're still using gas because the engine is warming up. It also takes inordinate power to get up to speed before gaining distance. This will make your mpg low until your engine warms up and/or you get up to speed for a good while.
     
  17. Fauxknight

    Fauxknight Active Member

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    If the ICE is warming up then the EV indicator will not be on, even if the car is using purely electric for propulsion. It might sound odd to have the ICE running while using EV for propulsion, but that's exactly what the car does sometimes during the warm up cycle (low battery charge or high power demand will switch propulsion over to the ICE).

    As mentioned there is a huge variable from trip to trip in given mileage, very often this is related to the battery charge. A trip where the battery gains a lot of charge will usually show poor mileage while a trip that nets a large loss in battery charge will show as high mileage. In the end any usage from the battery will eventually have to be replaced by burning gas, so it's better to determine over the course of several trips, or one whole gas tank at a time.

    These cars do take some mileage on them to level out, mileage should increase over the course of your first couple of months. In other words, they need broken in, which takes maybe 2000 miles.
     
  18. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    Same here. If you could shift the transmission into Neutral with engine off I wouldn't even use it for that (and yes, EV's often locked out, depending on the phase of moon as much as anything...).

    With previous cars and our slight downhill slope out of the garage, I'd just shift into Neutral and use Flintstone Mode. ;)
     
  19. Drdiesel

    Drdiesel Active Member

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    If the EV indicator is on, the ICE is OFF :eek:
     
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  20. ztanos

    ztanos All-around Geek!

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    But sometimes you are using full EV for propulsion and the ICE is warming up. The light won't be on in these instances.