EPA to Consumer reports - "your tests are awful" - hybrids do better than you test

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by austingreen, Aug 26, 2013.

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  1. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    I do remember him saying that, and he was right. Several Detroit-labeled cars, non-hybrids even, did meet or exceed 50 mpg CAFE.

    And yes, that the GenIII Prius Liftback is a bit over 70 mpg CAFE, handily beating the new future standard. Numerous commentators were unaware of the EPA-CAFE difference, and incorrectly wrote that the new standard is more stringent that Prius' current performance.
     
    #41 fuzzy1, Aug 27, 2013
  2. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    According to the table I made a few years ago, Prius G2 in 2008 had a CAFE rating of 65.78
     
    #42 SageBrush, Aug 27, 2013
  3. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    SageBrush said: ↑​
    The president also seemed to be confused by CAFE. Remember when he said that Detroit was producing 50 mpg cars already ?​
    I don't know about him saying that but, technically he was right, I think, if you go by the dumb unadjusted EPA numbers, which are what are used for CAFE anyway. 47 mpg combined would be way above "50 mpg" for CAFE purposes.

    >>>Yes Obama said it during his first term environmental speech at Georgetown I wanna say March 2011, and we discussed it here at that time. I don't think he has said it since then.


    Perfect...that would be exactly analogous to EV MPGe and close to same fossil fuel equivalents as EV at 100 MPGe. I wish I had thought of that.
     
    #43 wjtracy, Aug 27, 2013
  4. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    But not everyone lives in RFG areas. I'm asking what blend should the test use if it is to be one everyone actually uses? The standard blend, RFG, or one of California's blends, and which season? There is a marked difference in fuel economy between summer and winter. The rest of us simply aren't using the same gas.

    It would be a massive program to change. The public is concerned with the mpg numbers, but the primary purpose of EPA testing is emissions. The pollutant limits for the bins are all based on using the test blend. The manufacturers will cry foul that lower energy test blends should mean changes to the CAFE. Then what do we do if the powers that be get some sense, and cut back on the ethanol amount, or allow methanol or even butanol.

    Loop holes aside, the sticker numbers are pretty close to real world. I always wonder when people complain about not getting EPA, if they were even aware of what they were getting in their previous vehicles, and that they should be looking at the percent off from EPA, not the mpg amount.
     
    #44 Trollbait, Aug 27, 2013
  5. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    I read the virginia tech report, which said part of what you said, but these 2 part tests never were accurate for the country.

    The 2 cycle test really came out of a LA test from the way drivers drove there drove over 40 years ago. The city test, was a modified version of the mid '60s LA city recorded route, but it was slowed down in acceleration because the test equipment could not handle the stress of the documented acceleration. The highway portion from the early 70s, LA, with acceleration slowed down because of the equipment could not handle what drivers were doing in real life. It never represented how people drove in the bulk of the US, but did represent that most polluted corner of california. These tests were designed to test emissions, and seemed like a good start. It was inaccurate from the start, but it was better than regulators in other countries were doing. You can look at the cafe numbers which record the original tests.

    When the inaccuracies were realized they through the fudge factors in. This was to account for things not measured in the tests like engine warm up, cold weather and air conditioning. Things that might not happen in LA but do in most of the country. Not a bad second cut, but again the epa was not tracking real world mileage, it was a guess. The EIA reported that these adjustments were not enough. It wasn't that Americans were necessarily driving faster in 1985 then in 1977, I really have no idea what speeds were, but in 1978 when standards became in force, the standards really were not appropriate for the country. The test was from a time before many women were working outside the home. A snap shot of LA when detroit was booming doesn't seem relevant to today. Very few women worked outside the house. Dynometers now can do proper acceleration. Car technology is drastically improved.
    Outdated Tests Skew CAFE Gas Mileage Ratings: 48-MPH Freeways?


    The cafe tests never represented how the bulk of america drove. The 2008 standards though did get normalized (mathematical fudge factors) for the ethanol in fuel in 2006-2007 and how americans drove most cars. That leaves easy ways for manufacturers to game the system though, that would not be available with a more modern test. I don't think the 47mpg the fusion hybrid got on the dervived 5-cycles really helps you compare it to the prius v or even worse the passat tdi on the real world.
    Compare Side-by-Side
    on the people reporting (pre software change) fusion is 7 bellow its epa, prius v is 1 bellow, prius 2 bellow,Passat tdi 8 above. These samples are small and probably skewed, but that is too big of a variance.
    Agreed this has little to do with the ethanol content, which can only account for a tiny bit.

    I don't think this is a mess. The cafe requirements give a bonus for hybrids, and this is especially true for hybrid trucks. I don't really mind if the way cafe is written encourages manufacturers to offer more hybrids and plug-ins. The numbers were inflated with the tests.
     
    #45 austingreen, Aug 27, 2013
  6. Sergiospl

    Sergiospl Senior Member

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    #46 Sergiospl, Aug 27, 2013
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  7. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    I like it, but not so fast my friend.
    Compare Side-by-Side
    ford fiesta is rated at 33mpg but gets 40 mpg from the few customers. The fudge factors seem to come a lot from the aerodynamics, weight, and technology.

    What we should say is the prius series is not far off its epa, but other cars are. Consumer reports is wrong to pick on hybrids, but the test can be improved.
     
    #47 austingreen, Aug 27, 2013
  8. Sergiospl

    Sergiospl Senior Member

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    Well, the 2014 Accord Hybrid will shake things up a bit!
     
    #48 Sergiospl, Aug 27, 2013
  9. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    ...I take a hunch guess that the Japan gasoline looks more like EPA certication fuel...E0 with high energy content (non EPA RFG) type gasoline. Let's see what CR says!

    PS: sounds like a great car!! Honda itself says 49 MPG US EPA City, so my skeptic hat is still good. I cannot find much on Japan gaso make-up, some talk of 3% ETBE and optional E3. I think that means more energy content than USA gaso. I do not think MT says what fuel they put in there to say 59 MPG.
     
    #49 wjtracy, Aug 27, 2013
  10. Sergiospl

    Sergiospl Senior Member

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    Have problem with "hold ev up to 23 miles"
     
    #50 Sergiospl, Aug 27, 2013
  11. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    ...as in, we're gonna need a bigger battery?
     
    #51 wjtracy, Aug 27, 2013
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  12. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    Remember when nissan told us the leaf would get 100 miles, and toyota said the prius phv would get 15 miles. Its on a crazy, easy and slow japanese test (or LA4). On the US epa test the accord phv gets 13 miles not 23. The regular hybrid accord is going to get something like (up to 2 miles at slow speed).
     
    #52 austingreen, Aug 27, 2013
  13. Sergiospl

    Sergiospl Senior Member

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    Maybe typo for 2.3 miles.
     
    #53 Sergiospl, Aug 27, 2013
  14. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Not much more energy content. On average, using E10 results in a 3% drop in fuel economy. Which will drop that 50mpg by 1.77. The accord is a serial hybrid with a battery buffer most of the time. On city streets, it is going to be in EV a good portion of the time. When SOC drops, the engine comes on at an efficient load to power the MG with excess electric going into the battery.

    The question I have is what octane rating does the Accord take in Japan. Their regular isn't far of from ours, but the premium is higher. The engine has the compression ratio to take advantage of higher octane. In the new Sonic, which labeled regular fuel for sales purposes, using premium can yield a 5% increase in fuel economy.
     
    #54 Trollbait, Aug 27, 2013
  15. ItsNotAboutTheMoney

    ItsNotAboutTheMoney EditProfOptInfoCustomUser Title

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    I absolutely do not want CAFE to go. The EPA numbers deliberately inckude driving behavior. CAFE.is static target that is more reflective of the raw efficiency of a vehicle. Manufacturers should not be forced to hit efficiency targets set based on inefficient driving. It's the loopholes that need to go.
     
    #55 ItsNotAboutTheMoney, Aug 27, 2013
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  16. Stevevee

    Stevevee Active Member

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    Many people seem fearful of the actual results and facts, and ignore them as they would a monster under their bed.

    While not perfect, many car companies like Honda and Toyota produce cars that meet or exceed the EPA ratings. Why do people have to keep harping about the EPA and their tests? It's time to put on your big boy/girl panties and start looking at those companies that don't deliver.
     
    #56 Stevevee, Aug 27, 2013
  17. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    You probably need to write to consumer reports, as they are the ones saying the prius and prius c fall far short of the EPA estimates in the real world. Many newspapers and web blogs pick of their stories. This story said the epa checked and thinks the prius did just fine, but they are also fine with the fusion hybrid at 47 mpg and c-max hybrid at 43 mpg.
     
    #57 austingreen, Aug 28, 2013
  18. Air_Boss

    Air_Boss Senior Member

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    #58 Air_Boss, Aug 28, 2013
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