Does the Prius still make sense when midsize-car Hybrids are getting almost 50mpg?(Accord Hybrid)

Ok, but we could talk about safety. Mine is 5 star driver frontal, 4 star passenger. I'm thinking Prius is not going to protect as well as Accord, Camry in a bad front ender...

 

By inefficient designs, I'm referring to some more traditional Detroit designs that were bigger outside, smaller inside, and didn't protect well, in the era when my loyalties shifted towards Honda and Toyota.

 

Not sure where he is getting his cost on the Accord, the one i looked at was a hybrid/plug in and cost $50K with no mark up! I can by to Prius for that amount and have money left over for gas

 

Sticker on Accord Plug-in about a tick over $40k. Honda doesn't seem too interested in selling them.

 

A traditional serial hybrid isn't, but the battery buffer makes the difference. From what I've read on the Honda's motor hybrid sounds like what I envisioned the Volt would have when first announced. Instead of throttling the engine back and forth to meet load demands, the Accord runs the ICE at a set speed*. The one at which the ICE is burning the least fuel in ratio to the most power outputted. This generates more electricity than the car will need for propulsion in most cases. So excess goes into the battery. When the SOC tops off, it returns to EV mode.

Basically, the new Accord Hybrid pulse and glides the ICE automatically. When speed increases to the point where the car would be running as a traditional serial hybrid, the ICE will clutch in the directly drive the wheels.

*This is what the AI E-tron PHV did at first with its little Wankel. People found the constant hum disorienting. So Audi went with 3 set rpms to have the ICE noise sort of match vehicle speed. I think something similar happened with Volt development. Narrow, efficient rpm bands were smoothed out for NVH reasons. Articles on the Accord haven't stated one way or the other about its engine speed.

 

And they aren't selling well at all per July 2013 Dashboard - HybridCars.com. We'll see August 2013 numbers in a few days.

Off the top of my head, I don't recall when the Accord PHV when on sale but in a single day, the Prius liftback sells ~500 units. Accord PHV only sold 54 in July and 254 YTD. PiP is outselling Accord PHV about 15:1.

What I predicted below seems to be really happening...

 

I believe they hit the California dealer lots in June.

 

Actually, I just found 115 MPGe Honda Accord Plug-In Hybrid, Most Fuel-Efficient Sedan in America, Now Available at Select New York and California Dealerships - Honda.com and 2014 Honda Accord Plug-in Hybrid Starts at $40,570 | Edmunds.com. It went on sale January 15, 2013.

 

Honda Irvine had only one, had it delivered in June, so production must be low.

 

This certainly is an interesting thread to read.

To me it doesn't "yet" come down to whether The Prius makes sense vs. New Hybrid Competition.

I welcome it. Even as a Prius owner.

IMO The Prius is still the leader or the hallmark vehicle that people think of when they think of a Hybrid. If Honda does the Honda Accord Hybrid right? If with the passage of time it proves itself? More power to Honda....and with any raising of the bar I'd expect the competition to react, which I think is good for everyone.

I wanted the Insight to be more successful than it has been.

Since I think competition creates improvement I simply wish Honda well. I hope in the following years to hear good things about the Hybrid Accord.

Then in X number of years when I may conceivably be looking at my next vehicle, the existence of good/viable hybrid or alternative products coming from not only Toyota but other automakers is nothing but a good thing.

The Prius still makes plenty of sense, and competition? Makes sense.

 

At high power demands for accelerating and climbing, do you think the Acc Hy will use a hybrid mode with higher ICE rpm, or clutch to drive wheels directly?

I'm thinking higher power demand requires higher rpms.

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btw, the OP forgot one teeny issue :

The Accord Hybrid is going to cost quite a bit more than a Prius, probably about $4k more across trims .... if there is even a base 'LX' type trim.

 

Come to think of it, I've heard some suspect excuses for not carrying Accord Plug-in from southbay Honda in Milpitas .... they claim they would have been required to install some expensive charging equipment to seel the plug-in. ....

What? Can charge Accord Plug-in off a 120V dedicated outlet.

 

Accord Plug-in went on sale in CA and NY only middle of January 2013.

Accord Hybrid due to start selling in US in October 2013. It went on sale in Japan in June.

Google Accord Hybrid Japan for homebrew and promo videos. Brush up on your Japanese

 

Cycledrum, from your posting I realize hypermiling is not something u are likely to do - and your question is more rhetorical than earnest. So you can stop reading here and nobody will think the lesser of you. Just as you don't need to know how to rebuild a V6 engine to drive a Chevy - you don't need to know how to hypermile a Prius to drive a Prius. It is still going to get good fuel efficiency and emit 50% less emissions than an conventional gas vehicle...

However, for those who want to know ...

Hypermiling means different techniques/driving skills in different driving scenarios so having enough experienced drivers skilled in that a particular driving scenario-environment is key - the Prius wins hands down because there is enough of skilled drivers to actually learn from.

San Francisco Traffic is congested city driving with hills and lots of stop lights, stop signs, andyou have pedestrians to look out for. It's very challenging to get good fuel efficiency for anyvehicle - if you stay in the city for only short distances (<7 miles) the best vehicle is a batteryelectric car like the Leaf but a full hybrid like the Prius c with an automatic stop start idle technology is better than a diesel for fuel efficiency.

There are less than two dozen basic hypermiling techniques but they sometimes are done in combination to multiply their effect. It like compound interest 1.1 x 1.2 x 1.2 = 1.452 . Not all hypermiling techniques are effective in all scenarios.

A hypermiler doesn't necessarily hypermile all the time - but rather a hypermiler is able to recognized when the right driving conditions exist so a hypermiling technique can be used effectively. That being said...


Hypermiling Techniques for the Oakland- San Francisco Bay Area.

1. Time Shifting - driving in non-rush hour, when there is less traffic, when the traffic lights are turned off, avoid driving in bad weather if possible, avoiding certain roads when local school buses or commuting buses are running-stopping, etc. Less traffic makes hypermiling easier to do. Bad weather reduces fuel efficiency while good weather helps fuel efficiency. This technique generally amplifies the effect of any hypermiling

2. Trip -Route Planning - planning a route that conserves momentum by selecting roads so the Prius can minimize the need to stop: select intersections with traffic lights over stop signs, selecting roads with posted speed limits of< 55 mph, etc. Combining several short trips to be done in sequence allows for the residual thermal energy of previous short trips to improve the fuel efficiency of the next/succeeding short trip if the time between the short trip is not too long - e.g. under 20 minutes. If your stop is less than 5 minutes and if somebody is waiting inside the car - it is actually more fuel efficient if the Prius is not turned off while it is parked so the Prius can avoid the cold start process. Selecting roads with smooth road surfaces and little if no road construction helps too. This technique generally amplifies the effect of any hypermiling

3. Driving Without Brakes (DWB)- minimizing the need to use your brakes by anticipating the need to stop, using the accelerator less, coasting - gliding before you stop allowing the vehicle to slowing down to 15 to 10 mph before needing to press the brakes to stop. In this technique also includes looking for other indicators that the traffic ahead of you has stopped or has slowed down. For example, pedestrian countdown timers at the intersections can be use to predict when a traffic light will turn red or green. This effects of this technique is amplified when done in combination with Smart Braking - see (4)

4. Smart Braking - braking very early to lower the vehicles speed to adjust to a sustainable speed which will allow the car to avoid stopping. For example, 200 feet ahead of you two cars are stopped at a traffic light which has just turn green you are currently going 25 mph which will require that you stop because the two vehicles are not likely to be able to accelerate from the stop light fast enough to give you enough distance if you are travelling at 25 mph. So you brake at 200 feet and slow down your car to 15 to 20 mph by the time you are within 50 feet of them - by that time both cars are now going 15 to 20 mph and you have avoided fully stopping. This effects of this technique is amplified when done in combination with DWB - see (3)

5. Low Speed Mini Pulse & Glide ( Mini P&G) - this technique is for being stuck in a city traffic jam over 15 minutes long where vehicles are crawling under 15 mph. OR there is a slow and go traffic pattern due to road constructions - the roads surface is rough and the weather outside is nasty. OR your are travelling less than 5 miles/25 minutes.
* For Prius only* Set throttle mode to "PWR" Use the HSI display to modulate your accelerator - do a Mini Pulse by when pressing the accelerator press pass mid way but under the "ECO" capsule until you get to you top speed ( 5 mph to 15 mph) then do a Mini Glide by letting up on the accelerator until the Prius is in battery mode side turning off the ICE but only barely so using the electric motors just a tad or not at all so that the HSI display is not in recharge area. Continue coast for the next few feet allowing the speed to drop by 5 to 15 mph before you need to Mini Pulse again OR you need to Brake. A scangauge2 xguage LOD can useful to have to help you modulate the accelerator. Mini P&G seeks to minimize the energy used by maximizing the distance travel via momentum. Having low rolling resistant tires or overinflated tires multiples the effectiveness of a Mini P&G - see (6).

6. Tire Over Inflation and using Low Rolling Resistant (LRR) tires - decreasing the tires rolling resistance can help fuel efficiency for low speed driving - you can over inflate a tire up to the maximum tire pressure imprinted on the sidewall of the tire. This trades softness of the ride for fuel economy. This works by increasing the glide distance a car can travel per unit of fuel - if you don't glide than it won't help. This technique amplifies mini P&G see (5).

7. Driving with Load (DWL) - speed up before going uphill (e.g. +10 mph) and maintain a constant accelerator pedal while the Prius is going up hill but allow the Prius speed to drop as it climbs uphill. At the top-crest of the hill - Glide. As the Prius goes downhill or reaches a flat segment of the road, Pulse(accelerate) - regaining your speed as the Prius. At a predetermine speed allow the Prius to glide the rest of the downhill until te Prius nears the a uphill section. As you near the uphill section speedup and repeat your DWL cycle. On a Scangauge2 - xgauge LoD = 65 to 85 is a fuel efficient throttle point for the Prius - which is approximately under the "ECO" capsule on the HSI display on a 3rd gen Prius. On a 2nd gen Prius you really need a Scangauge2 to do this. The aeronautic/rocket science technical term for DWL is gravity assist (acceleration) - see footnote reference [1]. Gravity Assist works because the vehicle's powerplant load drops as the vehicle moves from a higher to a lower gravitational field strength position.

8. Giving yourself more time to drive = efficient Driving - The Prius gets its best fuel efficiency at about 25 mph - giving yourself more time to get from A to B allows for the lower speed. you are trading time for fuel efficiency - so you have to ask yourself is it worth it? Bob Wilson did all the work on this - and its so simple a 16 year old can do this - all you need is some persistance.

9. Grill blocking - when the driving temperature drops below 60 degrees Fahrenheit and you are not driving >=55 mph for over 10 minutes then blocking your front grill will increase your fuel efficiency. This decreases the thermal loss of the engine after the engine has started up so its effectiveness at increasing fuel efficiency is when the car is running over 40 minutes and persistently driving under 40 mph in stop and go traffic.


The above is the short list. To learn more read the vidoes posted on Priuschat Forums or the FAQs at Cleanmpg.com.

I had alot of fun learning this stuff...

hope this helps

Walter

[1] Gravity assist - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

Fair enough and yes, I laid out my hypermiling question with sharp edges. I watched several videos on hypermiling. It takes a good bit of active input, but can see where it becomes an interesting challenge. Can end up saving brakes and gas.

and #9) Insulating the hood to keep engine warmer.

 

The new HCH, the HSH and KOH and the Volt do the same pulse-and-glide. The characteristics of the lithium batteries make it worthwhile.

 

The difference between the hybrid and the plug in only seems to be battery size. The Accord PHV can manage up to 80mph on EV, but like the PPI will kick in the ICE under heavy loads. The few reviews I just checked don't give much on the specifics of the car's operation though.

Assuming single speed for the ICE, it is going to be around 70% load to begin with. That's around what a hypermiler will target when pulsing. Which is somewhere between moderate to heavy acceleration. So the Accord will have the same ICE rpm in hybrid mode regardless of what the driver is asking of the car, in theory. It might use lower rpms at lower speeds do to NVH issues, and it might go higher when mountain climbing.

I don't see the engine coupling in during acceleration or climbing. It's a direct connection without a transmission between. I suspect performance will be like an automatic transmission when locked up. Ever been cruising an the highway with a traditional automatic, and gave it some gas. The acceleration didn't seem as high as you expected, or there was a delay before it kicked it. That's because the tranny was in efficient lock up where the torque convertor is bypassed by a direct connection between the engine and transmission. It saves gas, but shifting will be harsher, if not damaging if the lock up was held then. (For ecomodders, it is possible to make a manual override of the lock up to improve fuel economy)

The question is if Honda will price it around the $27k to compete with the Camry and Fusion hybrids.

 

toyota required pip dealers to install level 2 chargers, just makes sense. some were unhappy about it, dealers hate to spend money unless they can foresee payback. sounds like typical dealer resistance.

 

Honda has Civic ...

Hybrid - $24.36k
w/ leather - 25.56k
no leather w/ nav - 25.86
leather w/nav - $27.06 + $790 destination

non hybrid Civic LX w/ auto is 18.9 , EX is 20.8. If they have an 'LX Acc Hy', I doubt steel wheels/plastic covers, but no moonroof, so let's say Civic LEX is $19.8k

Accord LX w/ CVT is 22.7, so $3k diff from Civic to Accord LX (has alloys).

Accord Hybrid, hmmm, not an IMA. Civic Hybrid might get small price increase for '14.

All Accord hybrids should get 3 door smart entry, push button start, I think it's going to be tough for them to stick to even $4k over the Civic Hybrid.

Camry Hybrid is $26.14 + dest .... only has manual adjust seat .... I don't see and Acc Hy with manual seat. Wager:

Accord Hybrid - $28k
w/ leather and nav - $35k + 790 .... cause that'll be loaded up like EX-L w/ nav or touring w/ LED headlamps.

Accord Plug-in $39,780 + but only has bio fabric seats.

we'll see.

 

Diesel exhaust is a clear carcinogen. A bad choice.