Toyota to announce hydrogen fuel cell breakthrough

I don't think hydrogen can touch the niche tesla is playing in. If Fuel cell vehicles are going to fill a niche its not going to be low ghg or performance. If prices come down far enough they can play in the low oil use, and can live if a government gives them special breaks that don't go to phevs. None of the current fuel cell cars - Equinox, clarity, ix35 (tucson), fchv-adv (highlander), f-cell (b-class) accelerate much better than a prius. We will see if the fcv-r has more than a 90kw motor, but its not that performance car that you can run on renewables like a tesla S or future X or blue star.

 

Hyundai is calling their fuel cell EV (FCEV). I don't know the details of how it would work.

In general, they may be very similar. The differences I would expect is how they tune the fc stack/size along with the battery.

I think it is more than marketing. Toyota's investment on hybrid technology foresaw the need for it as the core tech for gas, diesel, natural gas, and fuel cell hybrids. They were in the documents back in 2003 or earlier. You make it sound like they are trying to milk it through Prius' success.

 

hyundai in their shipping ix35 fcev (tucson) uses a 24 kw lithium polymer battery and 100 kw fuel cell , with 5.64 kg hydrogen in two tanks using a 100 kw fwd motor. They are making 1000 copies of these then things may change for the planned 10,000 run in 2015 depending on feedback.

Toyota in their last press releases had a 21 kw battery (some said nimh like the fchv-adv, some said lithium, its a confused press) a 90 kw fuel cell stack, with a 90 kw fwd motor. No new details really since 2012. It was hoped they would flesh out changes, but the last one was about a smaller fuel cell stack (3kw/l meaning 30 liters for 90kw stack), nothing about different operations. Hyundai removed the compressor to reduce cost, and made their stack slightly larger. It would definitely be nice if toyota learned things from the rav4 ev for this vehicle.

wow really? I don't see how they are doing this differently in fcv, other than perhaps doing some things not to infringe on the honda/gm pattents. What is their natural gas hybrid? No one seems to really believe diesel hybrids are the future except in very heavy vehicles.

 

Camry Natural Gas hybrid. It did not make it into production, perhaps not yet.

Combusting NG is not as efficient as reforming into hydrogen and consuming through fc stack. Maybe that's why Toyota is focusing on FCHV instead.

Toyota Camry CNG Hybrid Concept - Auto Shows - Car and Driver

 

It is also part of the Clarity's name, and the first hit when googling it is Wikipedia's page on fuel cell vehicles. The only hits for FCHV are for Toyota's FCVs, and most of those are for the FCV that used it for a name.

I don't see the need to go farther than FCV for any of these cars. They all use only an electric motor for all the propulsion, and they all have a power flow similar to a serial hybrid. Using electric or hybrid in the name is redundant.

They are putting it under the HSD umbrella. Why not also link it with their most successful hybrid using HSD?

 

It could be a pretty big niche. Performance AND low ghg in one package makes most other cars look a little behind the times.

 

If it is a large profitable niche, than that may be one reason tesla's valuation is so high. Fuel cells don't play well here.

 

If it doesn't have a traction battery pack, I would agree with you. The fact that the battery and fuel cell stack and power the traction motor would make it parallel, not series. Series would only charge the battery and only battery would power the motor.

All gas-electric hybrids also work similar way (in general). Toyota was able to bring out more synergy with HSD, hence became the leader. The same could play out with fuel cell vehicles because Toyota understands synergy.

 

Having two sources of energy does not make a vehicle a hybrid. The hybrid term refers to two or more power, motive force, or propulsion sources in the drive train. GM sells a bi fuel pick up that uses gasoline or CNG with two fuel tanks allowing switching between fuels. There is also Mazda's and BMW's bi-fuel gasoline hydrogen cars. Using your definition, they can call their vehicles parallel hybrids. They aren't though because there is only the ICE that produces power on them. A FCV isn't truly a hybrid, because the only power source is the electric motor.

A FCV can be viewed as series hybrid like. On a real series hybrid, one power source, usually an ICE, is used to drive a generator(or hydraulic pump) which powers the motor. Note, it does not have to travel through the battery. Thus a chemical energy source, the fuel, is converted to power, then to another energy, and back to power to propel the vehicle. The FCV's likeness to that is in the fuel cell. The chemical energy is directly converted into electrical. It loses the inefficiency of an energy>power> energy series, but also loses the element that makes a hybrid vehicle a hybrid. A fuel cell produces energy but no power, and thus can't do work on its own. (work is probably the proper term instead of power in the hybrid definition)

Comparing the FCV to a series hybrid is just a convenient way of illustrating how it is different from a BEV.

FCV and FCEV are synonymous with each other. FCHV is Toyota alone. It seems to be only used in relation to the FCHV-adv when searched. Toyota does like linking their FCVs to their hybrids.
"Toyota's hybrid technology is a core technology for fuel cell vehicles, too.

• Combining hybrid and fuel cell technologies
• Toyota's energy management technology yields high efficiency

At a steady cruising speed, the motor is powered by energy from the fuel cell. When more power is needed, for example during sudden acceleration, the battery supplements the fuel cell's output. Conversely, at low speeds when less power is required, the vehicle runs on battery power alone. During deceleration the motor functions as an electric generator to capture braking energy, which is stored in the battery."
-http://Fuel Cell Vehicle | TOYOTA MOTOR CORPORATION GLOBAL WEBSITE

I'm sure their experience with hybrid software control helped in FCV development, but that doesn't make it a hybrid.

The Mazda6 has regenerative braking, is it a hybrid?

That is pure marketing speak.

 

Clearly not. Can it power the wheels with 25 hp from CNG and 25 hp from gas blended together? No! Therefore they are not in parallel. These vehicles can only switch fuels.

FCHV can drive the wheels with power coming from both the traction battery pack and fuel cell stack, blended together making it parallel. Hope that clears it up.

There may be a scenario where fc stack (excess) power is used to charge the battery and later used to power the wheels. This path is series.

 

Honda FCX Clarity: (Miles-Per-Kilogram (City/Highway/Combined) 60 / 60 / 60 mpge

This Fuel Cell Highlander does 68 miles per kg, so a Fuel Cell Prius would be more efficient, more than 68.
1 kg of hydrogen=1 gal. of gasoline.

 

The term parallel only apply when the hybrid is the propulsion system. A primary engine and motor configuration in which one, the other, or both together can propel the vehicle. A FCEV only has an electric motor to propel it. The electricity for it goes through an inverter/controller. The electricity coming out of the fuel stack is no different than the electricity coming from the battery. There isn't a mixing of different energy types. A BEV could be called a hybrid since the multiple battery stacks have their out going electricity blended together.

Planes have multiple fuel tanks which can feed the engine/s simultaneously or they can be turned off individually. Ford has an experimental Ecoboost with direct ethanol injection and indirect gasoline, and it changes the injected blend based on power demands. These wouldn't be called hybrids. Most people wouldn't call bi-fual vehicles hybrids either. Though they would fit this definition, "something (as a power plant, vehicle, or electronic circuit) that has two different types of components performing essentially the same function." Hybrid - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Which is the definition being used when FCEVs are called hybrids. There is a fuel cell and a battery acting as an energy source. They are a series hybrid because the energy path is the same. No series hybrid puts electricity from the generator into the battery, and then onto the motor. The battery is on its own circuit. Series hybrids used to not have a battery, but it appears those systems are referred to as electric transmissions now.

As I said before, calling a FCEV a hybrid is redundant. All the ones nearing production have a battery. If there was a fuel cell car that didn't need a battery for warm up and buffering the output, that would be a break through.

Hybrid vehicle drivetrain - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Hybrid vehicle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

You know there are lies, damn lies, and then there is japanese testing.

No way the fchv-adv gets 68mpge on the epa test, toyota doesn't even want to test it. Instead they use an easy california loop and japanese tests to claim "real world". That 60mpge is on the epa test. Let's see how much more efficient the fcv-r is when toyota actually tests it. It should improve since it will be built 6 years after the clarity, but comparing different tests does no good. I'm sure if we gave consumer reports that fchv-adv they would get less than 40 mpge.

Until someone gets better mpge on the epa test, the 60 mpge figure from that clarity should be used. That hand waving using japanese tests to compare to epa is fairly fraudulent. People inside toyota have even said it should not be used. Or should we say the prius c gets 78mpg and the prius liftback only gets 50 (japanese versus US test). The goal is to reduce costs, sometimes that means worse mpge. Lets let them actually test the beast the same way as the clarity before we crown it a winner. I will be surprised if a fcv-r in 2015 gets a sales price before tax credits of less than $65K and a epa mpge of greater than 70. In the mean time we can expect the next gen prius phv in 2015 to get at least 55 mpge, an electric range (CD) of at least 15 miles, and a price before tax credits of less than $35,000.

 

Ok, I see where they are going with this, fuel cell hybrids, then Plug-in fuel cell hybrids with 25 ev miles or so before using any hydrogen.

See the new Ford Edge Hydrogen Fuel Cell Plug in Hybrid - YouTube

 

Yes ford and gm have changed their idea to embrace plug-in techology, with hydrogen fuel cells just a possible range extender. That has several advantages but the chief one from a marketing point of view is that you can fill it up with renewable energy at home, then fill up with hydrogen much less. The next is short term cost. The most expensive component today is the fuel cell stack, say you are shooting for a 130 kw vehicle, if 80 kw can come from the battery, then the stack only has to provide 50kw. Say the battery is 8kwh, in 2020 which is the earliest these things will sell in any volume, that will cost at most $3000, which is probably less than you save by using a smaller fuel cell. Adding a bigger battery and a plug may actually make the beast less expensive and perform better while providing lower cost and more convient fueling options.

Ford is partnered with Mercedes (and through them perhaps tesla) and Nissan. GM is partnered with Honda. All 5 of these companies are likely looking at plug-in fuel cells, if they bring out a fuel cell vehicle at all.

Toyota and their partner bmw along with hyundai seem committed to non-plug-in fcv. Toyota and Hundai are in the biggest push to get production models out soon, the other players are waiting at least 4 years. BMW seems to not like fcv at all but is partnering with toyota just in case.

 

If better batteries are around the corner, say year 2020, I would prefer pure electric EVs for the simplicity, no tank, fuel cell stack or muffler for (H2o).

Tesla is working on something: Tesla patent reveals metal-air hybrid battery powertrain

 

That is what toyota and the fuel cell lobby is fighting hard against.

In reality we don't have any idea if fuel cell or battery advances are going to leap forward. Batteries are good enough though for todays cars. The battery price decrease is about 7% per year. That means in 2020 they should only cost about 60% of what they do today. They do have voume and weight, so we can't simply make a 1000 mile bev with 10 times the batteries of a 100 mile bev. We should be able to build that affordable 200 mile bev before 2020, but some will still have range anxiety with 200 miles. That is where range extenders kick in, and I can see advantages of a fuel cell over a ice, especially if the fuel cell and tanks are less expensive than the ice/pollution control and gas tank. That will take fuel cell break throughs. The very optimistic doe numbers have fuel cells getting very cheap, but until someone actually builds one that cheap, I remain skeptical. There are plenty of applications in fork lifts and busses that don't require fuelling infrastructure to prove the fuel cell technology. BMW in their SC plant uses fuel cell fork lifts exclusively. If fc get even cheaper then maybe you can go back to the super cap + fuel cell idea, but I would bet against that technology winnning out. There is a market for BEVs and PHEVs, user needs are different.

 

I am not aware that Toyota is fighting hard against any battery technology development. Big car companies will make them all, hybrids, plug-in hybrids, EVs, Fuel Cell EVs and even Plug-in Fuel Cell EVs.

 

They have issued 6 press releases in the last 12 months bad mouthing EVs along with talking up how great their fuel cell technology is. I can pull one up if you would like. IMHO even if they believed these things, the press releases hurt them in perception of technological leadership, although it may help them in politics with carb.
Not that I agree with this opinion piece, but the marketing against EVs seems to have struck a bad nerve from a toyota owner
RAV4 EV Owner Contemplates Future of the Car | PluginCars.com

This is a similar press release attack as gm did against hybrids even while trying to sell 2 mode. It likely hurt them improving the system, hurt customer perception, and hurt dealer perception.