Electric cars are running on empty promises

I suspect he got that number from $7500 rebate for 1 million EVs.
Frankly, I would prefer to start with the 12 Billion annually spent on oil subsidies, or 120 Billion over the same 10 year period.

 

If he wants to pound Detroit further down into the ground, who am I to stop him?

 

I actually kinda share a couple of his gripes...

I AM pissed that many EV's only have 4 seats (have 3 kids that are barely out of their kiddy-seats) and the first thing I asked when I was at the pre-lauch ( "Pri-view" Toyota called it ) of the Prius+ (The V with 7 seats), I asked them if it would come in a plug-in version...

And I drove the PiP for a couple of days and both the range and the turning-circle* bug me. A plug-in SHOULD have a standard range of 50 miles. The range the PiP has is what I would hop on my bike for, so its useless. It's not enough for either of my standard runs.

Rant over.

* one of the very best things of the Volvo 240 series was its turningcircle of UNDER 10 meters, so when I bought a successor (V70) which is 1.5 times WORSE, I was a *slightly disappointed*.
One of the very best things of getting the Prius next to the Volvo was the excellent turnigcircle. Still almost 20% worse than the Volvo 240 (!!!!!) but still excellent. And what do you know... They managed to botch this strongpoint up in the PiP. Unbelievable... Maybe not an issue for Americans, but essential for narrow Dutch roads.

 

Even if cost and re-engineering the rear suspension was not an issue for a 50 miles PIP... imagine the Prii forum people complaining about no trunk space. See Honda Accord PI, Ford Fusion/CMAX Energi, and Chevy Volt complaints.

 

You'd need a trailer to haul a battery that big.

 

50 miles EV range is what is desirable. But 50 miles of EV in not attainable, today, without giving up something else in return. Add more batteries and it takes away the trunk, takes away cash and takes away mpg in HV mode. Or you can make the car bigger, etc. (harder to park, heavier, more costly, etc.)

I'm not sure why people think you can write specs and magically have what you ask for.

Mike

 

Why? A few of the Gen2 conversion company doing 40-50 miles range was able to put it in the trunk area. So why would Toyota need a trailer to do a 50 miles PI then? No trunk, but certainly not require a trailer.

 

For the same reason 3PriusMike stated above. You'll be giving up trunk/storage space as well as mpg in HV mode. It's just not viable with the current technology.

 

But JDK said it will require a trailer. I am trying to under that. If you read my posts, I said what you said.

 

Then we don't need a trailer. You're right.

 

If Toyota came out with a PIP with 50 mile range and the trunk space completely filled with batteries people would laugh at them for being so dumb. Yes, there are a few fanatical people that would buy it anyway.

Mike

 

Yes and no:

If used to handle the warm-up of each drive segment, the car should be a solid +60 MPG (4 L/100 km) year round. Using part of the traction battery charge for the first 7-8 km, the car avoid the warm-up cost, 8 L/100 km car until the engine warms-up.

No because Toyota marketing, especially in the USA, remains disappointing. It looks like someone is trying to sell pre-schooler toys or a 60 second version of 'musical.' Here is what I'd like to see:

The Gas Pump

1. Two women, one with a Prius V and the other a generic SUV pull into a gas station. Small voices say, "Mommy can we go to the bathroom?" Both Moms say "Yes but watch for traffic." Doors open on both cars and four nearly identically sized, mixed gender kids get out and run off screen as the Moms begin filling their cars. "Bing-bing, Bing-bing, Bing-bing . . ." one pump stop and the Prius Mom puts the pump handle back while the kids return to both cars "bing, bing, bing" and the Prius Mom says "Bye Peggy" gets in and drives off "bing, bing, bing."
2. A man in a Prius hatchback comes to a stop at the light and his engine comes to a stop ('birds chirping'). Then between him and the camera, a man in Jetta TDI pulls up ('engine noise, no birds'). They look at each other with mutual disdain. The camera moves back so the light changes and the Jetta TDI burns rubber while the Prius gets a car length ahead for the first 50 ft. The Jetta TDI finally rockets by the Prius and TDI driver smirking sees a filling station and pulls in. As the Prius driver passes the gas station, he is laughing to himself and over his shoulder the camera shows 'Diesel $3.95 Regular $3.22'.

The Date

1. Coed roommates are getting prepped when a horn honks. Both girls look outside and one has a date in a Chevy Sonic and the other a Prius c. Both girls say, 'The twins are here. Have a good time' and get in their respective cars . . . their dates are identical twins nearly identically dressed but different sweaters. Then comes the split-screen, compare and contrast:

• • 'Lets see the movie and then go to dinner' but the Sonic girl has to speak louder over the engine noise and turns up the volume. In stereo audio, the Sonic side is louder.
  • 'Lets get dinner' as the Sonic driver parks at a dinner and the Prius c driver parks at a restaurant.
  • Back in their cars, both girls say, 'Lets go see the submarine races,' again, louder in the Sonic.
  • Back at their shared room, both girls are happy, perhaps their clothing a little ummm disheveled. But the Prius c girl offers her room mate to share a big piece of chocolate cake.

The Beach

1. The Moms are back with their kids and cars loaded for a day at the beach. The kids get out and grab the stuff in the car, very similar sized beach stuff, and run off the dunes. Later they come back, load the cars and two pre-teen girls head to the two 'porta-potties' only to report, 'They don't have any toilet paper!' Both Moms walk over to a trash container and the SUV Mom picks out a drive-in paper bag that has unused napkins and the Prius Mom pulls out a slightly crumpled "Consumer Reports" and heads to the porta-potties.

Bob Wilson

 

Love getting some reactions...

I would love to not use the ICE, but with the PiP, that's not an option. I love the Prius, but the PiP simply does not serve my needs of being a full EV 90% the time with range extender for the rare occasion I need it.
As long as we can still afford the Volvo, we always have that (the build in boosterseats are invaluable! and it had room for three kiddyseats side-by-side, which may be easy for your average SUV, but is a miracle in a European car, like the BMW X3 owner who was peeking through my rearwindows in amazement...)

As for the turningcircle, I think the PiP and Gen3 should be equal. According to some online magazine specsheets the Gen3 should have the same turningcircle as the Gen2, but this is disputed in many review. Never seen it actually measured, but I can vouch for the fact the PiP I drove has a lot larger turningcircle than my Gen2.
And it probably has to do with the wheels that were fitted, as it is with my Volvo*, but I don't care what reason they have/had. A large turningcircle sucks. Period.

Good point, technically sound and interesting, but I like to view it as an EV option, which it simply isn't (nor was it designed to be).

* The Volvo has 'normal' 17" wheels due to the largest brakes possible being fitted, where the 15" should get a few feet off the turning circle. My Volvo is an ex-police car, the successor, the V50 was given back to Volvo after testing because the brakes were undersized and made the car catch on fire during high-speed-pursuit-testing by the police Many of the V70 series sceduled to be sold were kept in service longer until Volvo fixed this issue on the V50's. That does install some confidence of the build quality of my V70 (Nevermind the turbo having issues, both AC radiators failing within 5 years, etc).

 

Yes, but if it were a 20 mile pack with only some of the space lost, Toyota might be selling more. Despite the loss awkward looking cargo space, the take rate of the C-max energi is around 13% of the straight hybrid. The PPI is about 7%.

 

I see you have a 2009, 1.5L Prius? The reason I ask is USA model years can be confusing. I'm doing some warm-up studies on the 1.8L Prius and also have the earlier, sedan 1.5L Prius.

What we're finding is optimization on the cold-start, warm-up can significantly improve vehicle performance BUT this is not a trivial problem. Just wondering if you've given much attention to warm-up optimizations. For example, did the EU versions of your Prius come with the engine coolant thermos?

Thanks,
Bob Wilson

 

2 kids. 2 Prius.

 

Toyota has now acknowledged that customers and potential customers have been requesting more range in the Prius Phv. The car does not have long legs though since the next one is coming out soon, it isn't practical to modify it. All toyota can do now is discount it.

I do think customers would give up cargo space for range. Many people like me moved to the hatchback prius from a car with a trunk simply because of the fuel economy, and would be more happy with a small trunk. In the next generation we will see what toyota gives us. There are lots of people on the internet that have all sorts of opinions. The potential buyers though appear to want more range, and that doesn't mean an awful compromise.

The c-max sells better than most of us expected, and indeed that and the redesigned fusion sent ford solidly in second place behind the Toyota. The take rate is much higher for the plug-in version.
September 2013 Dashboard - HybridCars.com
Indeed if you look at the liftback versus plug in prius you get
9033, 1152,11.3% of the total plug-ins
If you add fusion and c-max hybrid versus energi you get
3689, 1508, 29% of the total plug-ins

The prius hybrid is simply a better selling cars than the ford hybrids. When you get to the adopter market though, the prius phv needs help, and I believe toyota will respond in the next generation.