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Relooking at warm-up

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Fuel Economy' started by bwilson4web, Sep 17, 2013.

  1. szgabor

    szgabor Active Member

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    Not sure how to demonstrate this convincingly short of a video... I almost exclusively drive alone. And if my wife drives there is NO such thing as glide :) Her foot pushes at least one of the pedal either the throttle or the break :-(

    Try to see if I can snap a picture in such state.. but I am almost always drive in PWR (except cold start).

    So you are saying it FORCES the ICE to stay on.... also as Bob's initial experiment shows warming up faster is not necessary "good" for FE at least.
     
  2. szgabor

    szgabor Active Member

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    Gallery-pwrdrive_0rpm.3GP-3.jpg
    Sources? You have just to push a button in your car, you don't need a source :) And even when i don't turn on Torque Pro, in the 2013 Auris we have the Engine off light in the dashboard!

    I see you have a 2012 Prius, so you should have my same software. Anyway, beeing a moderator on a Toyota hybrid forum, as per my signature, i know this feature is present also in 2009-10 EU Prius.

    But i'm sure you're beeing sincere saying that, in your car, PWR does'nt leave the engine on above 35 km/h. On our EU cars its like this in any condition, its just a standard feature regardless : that means that your side of the pond, Toyota choosed different settings for PWR. EU cars have it, since 2009.[/quote]
    Hi Maxwell,

    As a follow up... so you can take it as confirmed.

    I took a camera shot of running in PWR mode (fully warmed up) at about 28-29mph and you can see EV light on and the mpg shows full bar. I swear the scangauge was showing 0 RPM. I can not upload mp4 here ... but here is a galery created from the video .. hope this is convincing ....


    Gallery-pwrdrive_0rpm.3GP-2.jpg
     
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  3. GasperG

    GasperG Senior Member

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    I tried the same with EU 2009 (2010 model year) Prius and I can confirm what Maxwell says. Engine will spin and use fuel under 74 kph (indicated), over that speed it's spinned by MG1. This was around 50°-60° coolant temp.
     
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  4. Maxwell61

    Maxwell61 Active Member

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    Hello Szgabor, i did'nt doubted of your statement about USA HSD :)

    Now you know that EU HSD in PWR mode, regardless of engine & CAT temp, have the ICE spinning above 20 mph. Funny if in Priuschat this feature never appeared....
    But i dont want to derail in OT the magnificent BOB investigation , so i cut it short here.
    If you're interested in the feature of EU PWR mode and the impact of FE or comparison, i'll be happy to talk about in a separate thread.

    I tell you just the relevant bit: unfortunately in PWR EU mode, btw 20 to 42 mph. ICE is spinning but battery usage is unaffected relative to Normal mode, so if the load is light, you'll see the car going on battery alone and ICE turning idling. What you save is just the 0,4% of SOC for every ICE ignition and the relative istantaneous spike in fuel consumption always due to ICE ignition. In my experience, it compensate the fuel burned idling.
     
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  5. edwardob

    edwardob Member

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    what's this
     
  6. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Ok,

    I've been working on the problem of using the physical metrics to calculate the BSFC (g/J). Not a trivial problem because the data is also 'noisy' but here we go:
    [​IMG]
    • ~70C - threshold between high efficiency, fuel trim and enriched mixture
    • ~225-235 g/J - operational, peek engine efficiency
    I need to take more cold temperature metrics and warm-up rates. With the 'cold temperature' efficiency and warm-up rates, we can model different warm-up scenarios ranging from:
    • cold-start -> drive off
    • cold-start -> noload warm-up to 40C -> drive off
    • cold-start -> noload warm-up to 70C -> drive off
    Understand this is going to be a series of equations but once we have them, we can begin to model different scenarios. Once the models are created, we need to validate the results. Understand, I don't know what these equations will be BUT they should be reasonably accurate and reproducible.

    Bob Wilson

    ps. Frank we can use the injector volume and rpm to calculate the fuel burn in grams. It is not a trivial relationship but appears to be reproducible. We should also be able to use injector timing with suitable constants. Also, I'm getting 'noise' due to the slow scan from the current miniVCI capture. I may be able to increase the sampling rate AFTER
     
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  7. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    The NHW11 and NHW20 have hundred watt, 12V, electric heating elements in the cabin as well as the fans. We should be able to hack a 12V plug-in solution that powers the heating elements and fan to pre-warm the cabin. It can also put a pre-charge on the 12V battery to hopefully extend its life.

    The alternative is to put say a 400-600 W AC heater in the car and run it off of an extension cord.

    Bob Wilson
     
  8. Jeffrey Jessup

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    Can ambient outside air temperatures also be included? I know the tests are to see the coolant temp. effect on efficiency at different points but just thought that additional data item might prove useful to some.
     
  9. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    It is an important metric. But it is premature to worry about it for now.

    We will develop a metric:
    • rate of fuel burn to 40C
    This will let us know how much and how long it takes from any given starting temperature. What will be harder is the rate of cooling as this has a non-linear factor.

    Bob Wilson
     
  10. Agent J

    Agent J Hypoliterian

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    I agree about ambient temp being not too important for now as the car's cooling system is very efficient over a wide ambient temp range. When I experimented on grill blocking (half only - upper on GenII), it still maintained a steady 90-91C (194-196F) even when outside temp is 36-37C (97-98F). The blocking only sped up the warm-up process.

    How about overlaying engine load, which is something most of us can easily see using SGII or Torque (or even a route elevation profile just to make it more interesting) in order to have better sense of your test route and on how BSFC (which I don't see everyday) affects warm-up?
     
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  11. Jeffrey Jessup

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    Thanks for all the work you and others are putting into this kind of research. I do want to learn about the best and most efficient way to use my Prius and it is this kind of topic that will lead to that and may even lead to future improvements in the line. Hope that if I pop in with an occasional question it will add to and not take away from the topic.
     
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  12. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Former valley and river bottom land, there are hardly any elevation changes.
    [​IMG]
    After warm-up to engine stop on the driveway, I drove to the cleaners using neighborhood streets and cutting through or around shopping centers. This allowed me to stop before the miniVCI finished each segment; restart, and; proceed.

    Bob Wilson
     
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  13. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    We finally had a cold snap, 28 F (-2C), outside. So just as the Eastern sky was starting the lighten, pre-dawn, I connected the miniVCI and recorded the warm-up:
    [​IMG]
    • Time starts from when the 12V bus voltage changes indicating the car goes to "READY".
    • Each fuel metric is for the duration of the samples, not a cumulative but the grams burned.
    • The heater was off.
    • The engine auto-stops when coolant reaches 40 C.
    • After a pause of 20 seconds, turning on the heater started the engine.
    • At seconds 780, the engine auto-stops.
    • After 5 minutes, the engine starts and the cooled radiator coolant hits the block.

    [​IMG]
    • At seconds 22, the engine starts and fuel consumption is at the highest.
    • At seconds 120 and 25 C, the limit for high-fuel consumption occurs.
    • At seconds 150 and 30 C, we see the first low-fuel consumption occurs.
    • There after, we see fuel consumption alternate between high-fuel and low-fuel.

    [​IMG]
    • To start the engine, turn on the heater.
    • The car continues to warm up until 55 C when the engine auto-stops.

    [​IMG]
    • With the heater still on, the engine remains off until the coolant drops to 46 C.
    • When the engine start, the radiator coolant comes in and the coolant holds at 46 C.
    • Engine fuel rate goes from high-fuel and soon resumes oscillation with low-fuel rate.
    CONCLUSIONS
    1. Warm-up on the driveway should continue until 30 C when we see fuel trimming begins.
      1. Need to check O{2} sensors to make sure it is coolant that triggers conversion.
    2. From here on out, the engine will work at efficient BSFC
      1. The heater could be turned on.
    I need another cold-soak test but that may take a while for a cold front to reach Huntsville. But we've got an initial set of data that gives a starting point on driveway warm-up.

    Bob Wilson

    ps. Let me know if you'd like a copy of the recorded data.
     
  14. Maxwell61

    Maxwell61 Active Member

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    About coolant 30° reminds me of the end temp of S1a that i'm used to see, the 55 sec approx from ICE ON. Which usually corresponds to 220-230° CAT temp.

    Have you recorded CAT temp. in your testing? Can you affirm that is the value of 30° that makes the change to an efficient BSFC and not simply the change of status (so the whole settings) from S1a into S1b?
    For sure, timing advance changes from S1a to S1b, so the efficiency in burning fuel.

    Anyway, i see that the simple suggestion to make S1a standing still and S1b in motion, should be confirmed, is'nt it? If i'm getting it right, apart the battery usage, you seems to demonstrate that S1a is affected also by a low fuel burning efficiency. Right?
     
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  15. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Let me insert some thoughts:
    * * * Quoted material * * *
    About coolant 30° reminds me of the end temp of S1a that i'm used to see, the 55 sec approx from ICE ON. Which usually corresponds to 220-230° CAT temp.

    Have you recorded CAT temp. in your testing? Yes but I only have one set of data from a serious cold-soak of less than 10C. I belong to the school of engineering that says 'one is interesting,' 'two is curious', and 'three is a pattern.'

    Can you affirm that is the value of 30° that makes the change to an efficient BSFC and not simply the change of status (so the whole settings) from S1a into S1b? Remember the terms "S1a" and "S1b" were provided by Ken@Japan as a way to help explain the different modes. I'm 'Relooking at warm-up' because I want to see what the vehicle metrics are telling us. I'm after quantitative numbers that might provide better insights to the boundaries and practical impacts on cold-weather, Prius driving.

    For sure, timing advance changes from S1a to S1b, so the efficiency in burning fuel. Adjusting the timing is an effective way to reduce the thermodynamic efficiency and thus increase the temperature and heat of the exhaust gas. When the car is stationary, it removes spark advance as something also impacted by the engine load.

    Anyway, i see that the simple suggestion to make S1a standing still and S1b in motion, should be confirmed, is'nt it? For the single set of data most recently recorded, yes. We really need more records and Frank might have something handy.

    If i'm getting it right, apart the battery usage, you seems to demonstrate that S1a is affected also by a low fuel burning efficiency. Right? That is exactly what I'm seeing but we can look more closely in the data, the engine torque, to see if that hypothesis bears out.

    * * * End quoted material * * *

    When I get home this evening, I'll go ahead and upload the excel data in a zip file. I have no problem with additional eyes looking at the same thing I'm seeing. <grins>

    Bob Wilson
     
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  16. macman408

    macman408 Electron Guidance Counselor

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    The third gen has this as well, though judging by the repair manual, it may be optional in some regions/trims. I wouldn't count on it to do much in terms of heat, though. They don't give specs for how much power in what I have, but assuming it's still 100W, that's basically nothing in terms of heat. If you were to recirculate the output directly back to the input, and insulate it to the driver (maybe like a flight suit of some sort, with air in from the heater, and air out returned to the heater), you might feel it.

    A heater this small really won't do anything for the driver. My bet is that it's there to help avoid condensation; by making the output air ever so slightly warmer than the input, it'll reduce the humidity, and reduce the need for the air conditioner to run - which might not even work at such low temperatures; I'm not sure how cold the refrigerant can get before it freezes.

    As an aside, I've heard that a human puts out about 600 BTU/hour (for purposes of planning air conditioning capacity), which is 175 watts. Granted, this is probably reduced in cold temperatures (your body will conserve heat), but if you do some hard exercise and then jump in your car in a T-shirt and shorts while you cool off, you'll probably be warming the car quite a bit more than the dinky PTC heater would be.
     
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  17. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    The miniVCI data also shows a binary signal, "Request Warm-up" that is associated with faster coolant warm-up:
    • 2.61 C/min - with "Request Warm-up" OFF
    • 9.62 C/min - with "Request Warm-up" ON
    [​IMG]

    Bob Wilson
     
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  18. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Background:

    With a recent cold snap, new data:
    [​IMG]
    This time, I started the car with the heater set to low fan. This means a smooth transition after the coolant reaches 40C. The engine continued to run to 55C, just as the earlier test showed.

    What was surprising is the fuel consumed decreased until 2:20 seconds after the start and then the engine torque went to zero. The engine continued to run, spark retarded, until 20 seconds later when the torque came back. In effect the first loss of engine torque corresponds to the optimum fuel consumption.

    [​IMG]
    So it looks like we have several clues as to when the engine is trimming to an optimum fuel efficiency:
    • engine torque goes to 0 - difficult to detect unless one has a Prius-aware scanner
    • ~325C O{2} B1C1 temperature - also coincides with best engine fuel trim but also requires a good scanner that can find this emissions related field (maybe).
    • 25C coolant temperature - due to the rates of warm-up, this very likely tracks closely with the O{2} sensor WHEN starting from ~0C
    So I checked the previous data:
    [​IMG]
    It appears the fuel trim occurs:
    • engine torque to 0 (Nm)
    • ~25C - coolant temp
    • ~325C - B1C1 catalytic O{2} sensor temp
    The coolant and catalytic converter, O{2}, temperatures occur at about the same time when the starting temperature is close to 0C. So I need another run at a higher, initial temperature so the engine coolant has a 'head start' on the catalytic converter. Meanwhile, I'll check my previous records to see if I might already have some.

    I found some:
    [​IMG]
    OK, this was a warm day and sure enough, fuel efficiency starts at a coolant temperature of ~25C. The engine torque increases (i.e., more power) while the fuel flow remains the same. It is independent of the catalytic converter, O{2} sensor B1C1.

    Bob Wilson
     
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  19. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Conclusion:
    • Wait until the coolant temperature reaches 25C when fuel trim starts.
    • Drive modestly until coolant reaches 40C, without heater, or 55C with heater because the hybrid, engine-off, functions are inhibited.
    • After reaching 55C, full hybrid mode works.
    As I have time, I'll investigate the remaining questions ine new threads:
    1. What is the minimum fuel burn to reach 25C as a function of starting temperature?
    2. Compare and contrast the <25C driving effects versus >25C driving?
    3. Impacts of bumper inlet blocking on transaxle cooling and engine warm-up?
    Bob Wilson
     
  20. hybridbear

    hybridbear Member

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    So basically you're saying that you should sit idle only until the coolant reaches 25C/77F and then you should start driving even though the car is still in S1a and using only the battery to propel you?

    Since our Prius is parked underground the starting temp is often about 70F/21C even in the winter. Yet we still see it takes awhile before the ICE will shut off. I think that optimum for us is to start driving basically immediately though since we move slowly out the underground garage and parking lot. I think that if the ICE shuts off at the completion of S1a rather than acceleration moving it right into S1b and beyond we end up worse off for fuel economy. I'm still trying to learn how to best manage this since I drive the Prius less than once per week.