Dashboard: Jun-Sep 2013

That careless disregard for ordinary consumers never ceases to amaze me. But then again, it isn't at all a surprise. Automotive enthusiast interests weren't ever focused on middle-market needs.

We all know how well positioned Toyota is already for delivering an affordable & profitable plug-in hybrid. That irritates to no end those who support niche efforts. The voices of the mainstream keep pointing out what's truly important.

Continue distracting all you want. Pretending the big picture doesn't matter isn't constructive. It won't change the reality of the situation. Traditional vehicle production must be replaced.

 

Laughing all the way to the Bank while this P contest is going on in PC forum.

 

Sure, it involves taking a federal tax credit, but let's remind ourselves that the ordinary consumer MSRP price of a Prius Plugin is about $2,000 higher than a Volt. Very soon now, the 2014 Prius Plugin MSRP will match the Volt price after the credit.

 

i'm not concerned about toyota's future, either financially or in the ev/hybrid market. i do believe there are some here with a hidden agenda.

 

Yes, the biggest car company can not get sales as high as a specialty niche start up. Again how do the low sales address the needs of the mass market. Toyota thinks so well that they halted roll out. Please stop with this false line john. Toyota did not meet the needs of the market better than gm or nissan! I hope they now realize what they can do better, and give us an improved car and marketing strategy.

Stop your denial! Toyota is not winning. They aren't even second or third. They seem to think the $50,000+ fcv-r or whatever it's name is, is better for the market than an improved prius phv, at least that is the message I am getting here, loud and clear. I hope they are at least letting the phev engineers do a good job internally, and have a better car available when the fuel cell fails.

I would like toyota to be doing better in plug-ins. It is painfull to see your excuses. As long as you make them, I feel like I have to point them out.

I own a prius. I want toyota to do better here. Toyota is not meeting their objectives, but the existance of real sales have to show toyota that the market doesn't just want a bigger battery, they want a better driving experience.

Stop trolling this mid market bs! we aren't at a race to the bottom. Toyota can do better. Let's not pretend that 4th place is winning the race. Toyota screwed up! I hope they realize there is a market, do a better relaunce of a next generation, and actually roll out to the nation.

Pretending that everyone really wants a prius is ignoring a great deal of market research. John, really just stop pretending you are pope, and let this mass market crap go.

 

Then Toyota could have afforded a little risk in offering the PPI nationwide. Going by the take rates in June, the PPI could have been challenging the Volt's sales numbers sooner. Getting to mainstream isn't possible if you don't offer the car for sale everywhere.

Care to share.

I'm don't anybody here is worried about Toyota's finances or their hybrids. Their overcautious nature is going to cost them plug in market share. But that may not matter to them. Toyota doesn't seem to want anything to do with plug ins. Hopefully my impression will be proven wrong when details of the next gen PPI come out.

 

With the price of gas having fallen to $2.99, along with the much-hyped one-size-fits-all Volt not achieving several goals after 3 years of trying, backlash has been expected.

 

Yes the mainstream prius phv has sold 10,069 while the niche volt only sold 18,782 ytd.


Oops. I guess you fail at the point that the prius phv outsells the volt. Further that growth from last year was mostly fueled from the tesla S and leaf, both also outselling the prius phv, inpite of the fact that the tesla S was launched later without much of a dealer network.

Any other false comparisons john. Not going back for quotes, but weren't you supremely confident that the prius phv would be vastly outselling the volt by now? If the volt's numbers make it a failure (which they don't), would you not consider the prius phv a bigger failure?

I don't think it's a failure. It should be a learning experience for toyota. I hope they do learn and expand the market. Next year things get even tougher with bmw and mercedes offering plug-ins, and the tesla X appearing at the end of the year. This should grow the plug-in market to at least 140,000 units in 2014 IMHO. I hope toyota comes out with a better strategy and car in 2015, to push the US plug-in market to around 190,000 units (2015).

Note that ytd plug-ins have doubled compared to last year even with inexpensive gas prices.

 

Based on what?

A profitable & affordable plug-in without dependency on tax-credits will be far more competitive with the real competition.

 

SHOW ME THE QUOTES.

Far too often, I get associated with things I didn't actually say.

Then take into account how many times I actually did say that success means profitable high-volume sales without dependency on tax-credits.

 

Since the prius phv is not high volume and is dependant on tax-credits, do you think its much more sucesssful than the tesla S? I don't want to be in a pissing match, I just wish you would stop this bs about the prius phv being the mega sucessful mainstream plug in, and those selling better than it being crap.

Didn't you take the tax credit with your prius? How many do you think toyota would sell without them? What is the matter with incentivising new tech to get the market launched while battery costs go down.

I guess if you were honest with yourself you would stop replying in these false standards to me. You continuously claim that the volt is a failure becasue its not mass market, while the lower selling phv is going to sell like wild. Its just a lawyers denial of the truth. Spin that needs to stop. Please I am not putting words in your mouth. How many units must the prius phv sell for it to be mainstream? Is it? Has Tesla stopped toyota from entering markets? Why is the mainstream selling worse than the niche vehicle for most months this year?

Just stop the bad excuses. I am not trying to make you look bad, I just want you to stfu on this fake prius phv is the sucessful one, and everyone else is crap, because of some lame excuse you want to make up.

 

The Volt will likely sell 20,000 this year. The federal tax credit is for the first 200,000 plug ins sold by manufacturer. Using lazy math and barring an act of Congress, the Volt will be getting the tax credit for around 10 years. It probably won't be that long, but it should long enough to be there for the first couple years of the next gen Volt.

So, yes, a smaller battery will cost less. The tax credits are going to last a few more years, negating the cost advantage until then. So, how great will the price delta be when the credits do expire? Will the various PHV models' battery size change significantly before then?

Being really nothing more than an option for an existing hybrid, the PPI should have a profitability advantage over the competition. Instead of leveraging that to grow their market share in the PHV segment, Toyota loaded the PPI with features optional to the base Prius. Will they continue to do so going forward? Doing so isn't seeking affordability.

 

I SAID NO SUCH THING. EITHER YOU ARE CONFUSING ME WITH SOMEONE ELSE OR ARE MISINTERPRETTING WHAT I ACTUALLY SAID.

My statements have been in reference to the current design (this generation) being well positioned for that opportunity. There was no claim about sales themselves already having reached that yet.

Since the very beginning, it has been about supporting designs able to meet the needs of both business and ordinary consumers.

Why do you refuse to discuss 2014 or even address industry need?

 

And while the tax credits are around, Toyota should just take a token effort in selling a plug in hybrid to a public that is really just starting to embrace hybrids on a larger scale?

Few here are wishing failure on Toyota. They are upset over what appears to be Toyota's non-committal attitude to plug ins. PHV's are the easist and most affordable path to reducing fuel consumption, and all we get from the big T is a delay to the PPI's national roll out and press releases on their FCEV.

 

Why are we pretending that federal tax credits are the same for PiP and Volt?

Imagine if they are the other way around? Cleaner midsize plugin should get more, if you ask me.

 

USA 10 months 2013: Discover the Top 278 best-selling models!
#24 - Toyota Prius - 135,559
#94 - Toyota Prius C - 36,168
#110 - Ford C-Max - 30,784
#112 - Toyota Prius V - 30,652
#138 - Chevrolet Volt - 18,782
#140 - Nissan LEAF – 18,078

Yeah, pick on PIP when others are seeing % drop this month which may be due to lower gas prices.

Ford - 3,131 dealers
Chevy - 3,084 dealers
Toyota - 1,225 dealers (Not Selling PIP Nationwide)
GM vs. Toyota Dealer Costs | The Truth About Cars
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My reply to you back then, was I did not think it was designed for the market. In other words the prius phv would

Who decides on the needs? How do you measure how well they are being met? If its sales, the obvioiusly volt, leaf, and tesla S seem to be selected by customers more often this year. If its profitability (selling something at a price high enough to be profitable) tesla has the highest margin, and highest marginxsales. If its customer satisfaction, volt, leaf, and tesla have very high satisfaction needs. We have heard from toyota's own marketing department that its customers want more electric range, and higher cut off speed. I don't know what metric you are using, but it seems to be the marketing statements from toyota back before launch. I don't think either of us believe that this satisfies the desires of a big market of plug-in drivers.

We are on a thread about sales this month, and you seem to bash the volt and leaf for each only being on a run for more than twenty thousand units in the US this year. It is a sales volume thread. Now the prius phv has just cracked ten thousand units, and its doubtful that they will pass fifteen thousand units this year. We hear excuses for the volume of not being rolled out nationally. Fine toyota, roll it out! Compete! But a dedicated corporate decission should not be used as an excuse. Tesla's explanation for lower than expected 4th quarter sales a problem with its battery supply chain. That is a miss, but hopefully will be rectified next quarter. So no I don't wish for your speculation, but if you want to give it fine.

If over 20,000 cars in each of 2012 and 2013 is a failure for the volt. How many will be sucess for the prius phv in 2014.

To me, the volt, leaf, and prius phv all need redesigns, but this takes time. I hope they all learn the right lessons. The prius phv will be the first of these redesigns, and I hope that will better serve the needs of the US market. The current one appears to have been designed for the Japanese market, but has done much poorer than expectations there. When toyota came out with the gen II prius, they did some design changes for the US market, and that helped them, instead of hurting them in Japan.

 

No one is pretending that. Toyota knew the tax credit rules, and chose a smaller battery. Why are we pretending the tax credit rules will change tomorrow. The rules are the rules. Now in 2018, these may be different, but battery costs also are expected to drop on the order of 40%.

Toyota and GM helped write these rules. Toyota got congress to drop the lower requirement down to 4kwh, the size they wanted to build. Toyota gets lots of tax breaks from the US government, even on the cars they import from japan. Toyota got the most money on cash for clunkers. I don't think congress is about to change the tax credits to give more to import cars.

Toyota's PAC is now attempting to get the US tax payer to pick up more of the tab for its Fuel cell vehicle and hydrogen fueling infrastructure. Toyota isn't playing on a level playing field in the US, they are playing on a field that helps them.

 

We are simply trying to talk about facts.

The prius phv had a good month this month. But when some on this forum, bash other plug-ins because the prius phv is so much more mainstream and a much bigger success some of us have to speak up.

It is not unfair to compare national numbers to toyota's limited roll out. Toyota's limited roll out is 100% due to toyota's decision on how to market the car! In fact we would welcome a nation wide roll out, and more support. Its ludicrous to say the volt is a failure with 18K cars ytd, but the prius phv is a sucess because of 10K ytd. With out the mean mouthing of other cars, I certainly would not have brought up toyota's questionable decissions.

The other prius models did poorly this month, and as I put in my mention, this had to do with a weaker hybrid market partially due to low gas prices. Compared to october 2012, all vehicles grew 10.5%, hybrids grew only 0.8%, while plug-ins grew 36.8%. This is a lower take rate for hybrids, and the highest take rate for plug-ins. As hybridcars said

The hybrid car market grew a great deal in 2012 because of the prius variants (c, v, phv). In 2013 the story is the tesla S, ford fusion hybrid/enegi, c-max hybrid/energi, and the camry hybrid and its derivatives TAH and LEH.

 

I've been picking on the PPI for awhile. Starting with it being overpriced for what it offers. The price reduction takes a big step in correcting that. Now, will Toyota start rolling the 2014 out to other states?