Dashboard: Jun-Sep 2013

I have many, many quotes in my blogs contradicting that claim. They were documented back then knowing attempts to tell a different story would occur later. Enthusiasts had much different expectations. What they hoped for is not what ended up being delivered.

But guess what, it doesn't matter anyway. The label continues to be vague and the official organizations have simply moved on. CARB wants significant emission reductions. BEVx is a good example. The new category is their push toward that...

• The vehicle must have a rated all-electric range of at least 75 miles (higher than the 50 miles required of a zero-emission vehicle);
• The auxiliary power unit must provide range less than, or at most equal to, that battery range;
• The APU must not be capable of switching on until the battery charge has been depleted;
• The vehicle must meet "super ultra low emission vehicle" (SULEV) requirements; and
• The APU and all associated fuel systems must comply with zero evaporative emissions requirements.

Note how Volt doesn't meet any of the criteria. It very much fits into the category of what "plug in hybrid" now includes. Note that Prius meets the final two. In fact, Prius has been delivering them (also known as the PZEV rating) for a number of years already, long before the plug-in model was rolled out.

 

You've managed to completely ignore the obvious definition of EREV which is that under typical operating conditions an EREV operates as a full-power EV (equivalent to a LEAF, for example) until the battery is empty and then switches to a range extender which provides a similar range as a conventional gasoline powered car.

The Volt that was delivered clearly meets that definition.

You are hooking your argument on the silly "GM lied" controversy about the existence of a parallel hybrid mode in the Volt transaxle. It's certainly true that GM surprised everyone with the existence of this mode late in the car's development. It's also true that some people had become irrationally invested in the supposed ideological purity of a serial hybrid design as opposed to a serial/parallel hybrid design.

The arcane implementation details of that discussion have little to do with the functional EREV capabilities of the Volt. It still always provides an electrically-driven performance experience. It is gas-free until the battery is depleted at speeds up to 100 mph and 0-60 in around 9 seconds or slightly less. Even after switching to extended range mode, the Volt provides immediate full torque and is powered under strong acceleration directly by the electric motor and 111 kW battery pack.

I'm not sure why you are talking about BEVx here. It's only relevant for the BMW i3. The Volt has never aimed or claimed to be compliant with BEVx.

Wrong. The Volt has met the same final two criteria since early spring 2012 about the time that the Prius Plugin began delivery. These criteria are required in order for cars to be issued green stickers in California that allow access to High Occupancy Vehicle lanes.

Maybe you should try driving a Volt sometime so you can be more familiar with it. It's been available for nearly 3 years now.

 

Since that vague description also includes Ford, that off-topic discussion is clearly not accomplishing anything.

Returning back to the topic, I have not seen anything stating that model of Volt is now what's offered throughout the rest country. You get that with Prius, even without a plug. SULEV with evap. has been Toyota's standard for a very long time now. Having a cleaner and more efficient engine is an appeal factor for sales.

 

Wait, the Fords are EREVs. Doesn't that make USBSeawolf's claim of blended PHV's whooping EREVs wrong?

Then aren't the rest of their vehicles rated SULEV?

BEVx was something cooked up by CARB, an organization that is pushing FCEVs. It places conditions on the vehicle that are intended to limit its performance when off grid electricity. Early reports claim the i3 has reduced performance when driven by the ICE. Whether that is true or not, why limit liquid fuel range to that of the EV range? A BEV with an onboard range extender is going to have limited space for the fuel tank to begin with, and the ICE is SULEV with evap. controls. Why arbitrarily limit it? Double range of 70miles is still quite low. Isn't there a risk that refueling twice as often will just increase some of the emissions?

A BEV with a 70 mile range can work well for many people. A BEVx will spend the majority of its time using wall electricity. CARB's limits on the range extender just ensures that it can't become an ICE car replacement. So people will still have to use a second, likely more polluting, car for longer trips.

 

No, the Ford Energi does not behave like a full-power EV under typical operating conditions. It operates like a Prius Plugin with about 75-80% more battery pack power.

Instead of being limited to 62 mph it is limited to 85 mph. Instead of a maximum battery output of 38 kW it is limited to 68 kW. However, it weights 3,900 pounds vs. 3,150 for the Prius Plugin so it's only about 45% more power per pound of vehicle weight. I've seen claims that the Prius Plugin does 0-60 mph in about 27 seconds without the gas engine. I was unable to find any equivalent reports of 0-60 mph for the Ford Energi.

Likewise, the Energi will start up the gas engine during strong acceleration which is something a full power EV obviously wouldn't do. If you want to avoid that noisy thrashing about under the hood you have to remember to put the car in EV Now mode.

In EV Now, it apparently accelerates well at city speeds but is anemic at highway speeds (insideevs.com review) and would be inadequate in many passing situations.

As I've said before, it's all really about the battery size. At a bit under half the battery kWh capacity of the Volt, the Energi is well on its way towards approaching full EV-style drivability but it isn't quite there yet.

EREV is a useful and descriptive term for expressing the driving characteristics of a vehicle -- full-power EV until the battery runs down and then a range extender to keep you going down the road.

I see people struggling about whether the Volt is a hybrid and whether the revelation of its parallel transaxle mode changed its hybridization status. Is EREV a separate status or is it a subset of PHEV?

These discussions fail because an EREV is both an EV and a hybrid but at different times depending on the state of charge of the battery pack.

What "topic" are we getting back to... this thread is supposed to be about car sales rates.

The Prius is not advertised or warranted as an SULEV throughout the country to my knowledge. Toyota may choose to build and deliver it that way but many customers are probably unaware of the warranted emissions category of their Prius.

The Volt catalytic converter was modified in Spring 2012 to meet the SULEV specification. I suspect, although I don't know, that most of the country still gets the original converter which met the SULEV rules except for narrowly missing the Carbon Monoxide requirement.

I'm not aware of any differences in the zero evaporative emissions components in Volts built for different parts of the U.S.

 

Plugin conversions offer only 10kW to the motor before ICE kicking in. That's because HSD limits it in EV or Stealth mode. More battery power is only available to assist ICE for heavy acceleration. To my knowledge, the hacks that 3rd party conversions cannot get around that.

10 kW EV power is not enough to complete EPA city cycle without ICE starting. PiP has 38 kW (have seen reached 41 kW) with extra power for hills and even acceptable highway merging power. EV speed for US PiP was probably raised to accommodate how interstate highways intertwine with US cities.

To me, EV operation more than capable of city driving while getting 50 MPG on regular gas in a mid size car is a game changer. 12.4 miles (based on my 1 year data) for city driving is plenty because that translate to about an hour of driving.

 

Nope, it was not that way before. There were heavy resistance to call Volt, a plugin hybrid. If you corrected them, your comment got -1 and then got hidden after about -10. There is still resistance and people still claiming Volt is an EV with range extender.

Nit pick or not, Volt proponent like you, have made a huge deal if PiP gas engine kicks in above threshold when it is better to use ICE. Yes, it is better to be able to choose the suitable.

However, that is irreverent because it violates the definition of EREV, which is flawed from the concept. I am not letting you wiggle out of it.

 

Isn't this all sillyness in 2013. I know you and John really hated the volt before it was released, but before sale it was well publicised that it was a phev, that acted as a full EV until the battery hit a mininum state of charge or operated it in extremely cold weather.

Also before the first one was sold it was well known that at low speeds after it was bellow a state of charge it acted as a serial hybrid, at higher speeds it could be serial or parallel hybrid.

If you are worried about message boards before release, after almost 3 years of shipping models, you need to adjust to today's reality. I realize hard core tea party types like Mike Kelly think the volt is an assault to god, that the government should make laws controlling a woman's vagina, and its ok to shut down the government because you don't like the president. All those things, but it puts the hate of the volt in his deeply irrational context. Don't fall for all that stuff.

To me the people shouting EREV down today, either are confused or just angry. There are 2 types of phev's today - those that in charge depletion mode require the gas engine to blend in normal operation, and those that don't.

The porsche 918 can keep its ICE off in normal operation with a button, but also has a sport mode where the ice adds in for even more power. Given the porsche 918 in ev mode is as quick as a volt, its difficult to say it has to be blended. The more mundane porsche Panamera Phev can do the same tricks although will accelerate slower than a volt in electric mode. Therefore we get a strange idea that for an EVER we should really not have the silly idea that it can never blend, but perhaps should have a performane idea. Say minimum of X miles at 60 mph, and miniumum acceleration in EV mode of Y seconds 0-60, and minimum electric speed of Z mph.


Perhaps simpler would be to call the prius phv and the ford energi's blended as they can't do the minimum without turning on the ice (my minimum anyway, but the ford is getting toward that grey area) while the porsches, bmws, and volt seem to perform fully as cars in all electric mode as phevs (don't need to call the erev, but call the others blended). To me blending via a button is a good idea, but its also good to be able to drive in a less capable ev mode.

 

Calling out Volt for missing its own design goals and not meeting consumer need is considered what?

So much for being constructive...

 

John I hear you constantly moaning about crap that was on message boards before the damn car was released. That is not constructive. You also seem to feel that even though Toyota has one of the most powerful pacs in the industry, that the US government treats them unfairly. When I point out these things you act like a spoiled child that was told to go to bed. Grow up.

I really doubt anyone that bought a volt, was confused then upset that it would run in parellel mode. Some wanted more control about hybrid mode and a button was added. Since customer satisfaction is much higher than for the prius phv, at least according to the one survey we have, I don't think customers are the ones upset about this. It seems to be Mike Kelly, Darrel Issa, and you. I mean different customers seem to have different criteria for choosing a plug-in, and in north america the volt is the one chosen most often. The customer surveys have ways that the volt could be improved, and gm should do these things, but it seems to be quite a good car.

If you don't like my definitions confront them, be constructive. Stop sniping, and using passive agressive little digs.

Was that more constructive, or do you think that there is no difference between blended phevs and phevs that can offer a full level of performance in EV mode?

 

John, once again, cars don't sell and are not made to meet consumer needs, they are made to meet consumer wants.
The market is created by what most individuals want. Manufacturers then build based on what most people want as it helps them sell cars.
You want a Prius, that is fine. Don't get angry at others just because their wants are different than yours.

 

Um, that's called losing touch. Look at how the business is actually sustained.

Talk to those purchasing the bread & butter vehicles the automakers offer.

For Toyota, good examples are Camry & Corolla... which is why from day 1 we saw Prius nicely fit between them.

 

I have acknowledge that the PPI is better than a plug in conversion. Considering it is Toyota, their car, and their software, I would hope they can do better than a small outside company without access to Toyota's info on the car's inner workings. Beyond the plug and larger battery, the PPI shares the same hardware with the Prius. Same ICE and traction motor. Larger battery and software changes allow higher output from the motor.

Total EV mode in the city for those who commute allows it is a boon. Not everyone's commute will fit for that. For them, some of the wall electricity will go to EV at lower speeds, and the rest will boost their gasoline economy at higher speeds. So the PPI does a much better job on the EV mode, but the wall power boosting performance in hybrid mode is the same as a conversion.

Again, better does not mean different.

This must be at a site where I do not tread.

Volt proponent? Only in so much has I would prefer to own one over a PPI, and my anti-Priusness is grounded in a model not being built in North America. The Volt concept intrigued me, but all my news on it came from magazines in waiting rooms or Priuschat. I hoped it would do well, because that would advance plug ins in general. But I had no dog in the fight, gave it as much attention as that would warrant.

I did at the EREV thing at first. The entire 'it is not a hybrid' thing was silly. Now it is a succinct way of differentiating between the plug in hybrid types. Just like using full or mild hybrid. GM may have invented it for marketing, but it is being co-opted by the masses.


My negative response to the PPI at first was because of not completely understanding it. That is Toyota's fault. It is their product. It is their job to inform the public about it. Any negativity now is mostly over how Toyota is handling it.

My only, um, question over the PPI's speed threshold is why so high? Or accurately, why is it different in different markets? The entire design philosophy of the PPI is to use the fuel that is most efficient for the moment, correct? Mostly in electric for low speeds, and gasoline for high. Yet, the car has different speed thresholds depending on market. Do the engine and motor efficiencies change depending on what side of an ocean you are on?

I've said my pieve on EREV, and was not the one to bring it up in this thread. Let's discuss the differences between moon and sun roofs instead.

 

People hear what they want. I requested those quotes. They weren't provided. That made a confused situation even worse. It's done. Arguing of semantics is pointless. Want a constructive discussion? Focus on the topic. Start by asking questions about the here & now...

- WHO IS THE MARKET?

- WHAT SHOULD THE PROFITABLE PRICE BE WITHOUT SUBSIDIES?

- HOW MUCH OF THE ENTIRE PRODUCTION SHOULD USE THAT TECH?

- WHEN SHOULD IT BE DELIVERED?

Then identify criteria that will determine success, setting clear measurements.

Still want to talk about the past? Answer those same questions.

 

It was, by far, the biggest internet support resource for Volt. Not having treaded there means not having all the information needed to discuss the past... more reasons for this to be done. Time to move on.

Tell us about what comes next.

 

As I told you this is a thread about sales, US today.

As I predicted years ago, when talking plug-ins the market will be initial adopters. That has turned out to be the case. Your mass market is not these 2013 phevs and bevs.

Do you disgree? If so where are the numbers?

That is the daryl issa, mike kelly question.
It is based on the idea that the US as a country should subsidize oil and not new technology.

I prefer to think of the question as what will sell well with today's regulation, and not think if we can only kill the tax credit for plug-ins (about $700 m this year) and keep the subsidies for oil (about $4B this year) how many fewer efficient cars can we get on the road.

In 2013 or 20XX. I think you are hung up on this in your mind. Its a small proporstion of production in 2013, but its growing fast.

Again Tesla is doing the best at delivering what satisfies the market. Toyota should have major advantages but the phv seems to be a miss. I hope they have a epiphany and do much better in the next generation. It should be a car that satisfies the customers needs.

What has not worked, is the idea that a plug-in should drive exactly like a gas car. Nissan and GM have both made some small modifications from the market feedback, and

Lots of definitions of success, but for a plug-in I would base it on sales and satisfaction, not how profitable a company is today. The prius gen I was about sales and satisfaction, then they took user feedback, and cost savings to build a financially sucessful model in gen II.

You are the guy that keeps bringing up things from the past. Then you snipe with non-sensical quotes. Again if the prius phv is the mass market car that serves needs better than the other plug-ins why does it have lower sales and lower customer satisfaction? That is about today, and yet you want to change the tax bill to help toyota sales.

 

Which was why I wasn't discussing the pass beyond what I experienced.
EREV looked like a contradictory term born of marketing when it was coined. It has become simple way of differentiating PHV drive types. Embracing it instead of fighting it now can highlight the distinction between it and blended PHVs, which might lessen misleading expectations people have for the PPI. If the Volt is an EREV and the PPI a PHV, people might stop expecting to get the same experience out of both.

I thought a discussion on moon and sun roofs came next.

 

I find that attitude totally rude and not constructive, especially on Prius Chat. Can't do minimum without turning on ICE? Are you angry because a hybrid uses both engines for full power?

What is your minimum? Why are you implying your minimum onto others? Texas driving condition is not the same as NYC. Then, you are vocal about Toyota not selling PiP in TX yet.

I use my PiP as an EV for short trip city driving. That meets my minimum because that's where displacing gas with electricity makes sense. I get full advantage of both electric and gas and the synergy they produce.

Back to basic with series hybrid. It is propelled only by electric motor. The electricity comes from battery and gas engine (or another on board source). And then there is plugin version of it, plugin series hybrid. Volt and i3 belong in that category, although Volt has some parallel element when a clutch is engaged. Series hybrid has a lot of power redundancy, contributing to adding weight, potentially reducing interior space and increase in cost. If power redundancy is what you call "full" EV power, that's fine. Just be aware of the disadvantages.

PiP is series-parallel plugin hybrid. It has some power redundancy of a series hybrid (notice why 98 hp ICE + 80 hp motor = 134 hp combined) but it also has parallel hybrid features (72% of ICE torque goes to wheel). It balances both architectures to bring out the best of both worlds. When plugin version was developed, Toyota made sure the balance did not get impaired.

BTW, I don't think Ford plugins can blend well. It's ICE is inefficient at cruising speed due to larger displacement and the lack of exhaust gas recirculating system. Therefore, it will not have opportunity to blend. In defense, it has less reason to run the ICE due to more powerful battery and higher EV speed.

 

Sorry to remind again that Volt does not have full power in EV mode. Motor Trend power curve showed it and 0-60 mph acceleration test (from various sources) showed that it is faster in hybrid mode with ICE on.

Just because it drives like an EV, does not mean it is an EV. If it has two fuel sources on-board, it is a hybrid -- either you use it or not.

 

I was not dwelling on the past. I mentioned it because someone was ignorant and made an incorrect claim.

Wouldn't be Austingreen without jumping in and trying to earn some kudo by sounding like a referee. You too weren't aware of these past discussions until John and I informed you.

I still see the misinformation about Volt (being an EV) on the internet and the misconceptions that trollbait (and you) showed of PiP. Now that we have corrected them, let's move forward and correct the damages caused by them (the least we can do). Unless, of course it is not in your best interest.