Dashboard: Jun-Sep 2013

Have you tried PiP for a year? I have and it is more of an EV than a hybrid, from the number of trips I have driven. A conversion will not be able to do that.

Again, I suggest you test drive a PiP.

 

USB you know quite well the differences between a full phev and a blended one. There is no anger involved. I think part of the lower customer satisfaction comes from how easily the ice turns on in the prius phv, and that is about satisfaction.

Absolutely to both. I think toyota is hurting prius phv sales by not selling them in texas and florida. I think you agree with this. Texas has encouraged the sales, and even has a very profitable toyota plant not far from me. Some of those employees have expressed interest as san antonio has quite nice incentives for driving a plug-in.

This is quite differnt than the differneces between a phev that needs to blend and one that doesn't. If you daily driving doesn't require the ice to come on in your prius phv, then IMHO it isn't blended for you. For me it would be blended. For my standards minium non-blended would be, daily drives 0-60 in 13 seconds, top ev speed of 76 mph, 15 mile range at 60 mph.

And we both agree its a good choice for you. I think you would also agree its a blended phev for most of us.

To me the series has nothing to do with the differences in phev types, unless the parellel is extremely jerky. The hsd would be fine in a non-blended phev. A blended phev just doesn't have enough power in ev mode for average daily activities. I would say a volt to someone that has a 70 mile commute each day will end up being a blended hybrid. The advantage of non-blended is indeed more of an EV driving experience and the ability to use no gas on most days.

Having a full phev is going to necessarily add cost and weight. I don't think weight is a problem unless it affects handling or acceleration. Interior space of the volt are because of design choices, not the type of hybrid that it is. The bmw i3 makes different choices and could easily produce a car with the room of a prius, but decided that it wanted a smaller exterior. The i3 size and choice of materials added cost but dropped weight.

Again I don't think the parallel versus serial phev thing makes a difference in label unless it makes it un smooth. The difference is whether the ice turns on or not in charge depletion. The bmw does impair its charge sustain mode by a small gas tank and crippling software in an attempt to get some regulatory favors.

I have not driven a ford energi, but have no driven volts and leafs, and been briefly behind the wheel of a prius phv and tesla S.

I think you are being critical of what you consider the hybrid system in the energis and not how it blends the two, but having not driven one, I don't have the knowledge of it it blends well or poorly.

 

To me the people putting out the mis information about the volt being an ev are the ones against it, not the potential buyers. I have had a couple of people think I could plug-in my prius. Lots of ignorance of the prius liftback out there as well.

Yes, I would like to move on and not continue to have past conversations.

 

And on my commute it will more of an hybrid. By I admit mine is outside the average.

My understanding, and improved opinion, of the PPI is due to what you and John have posted here, believe it or not.

The Prius is a great all around car. Toyota didn't want to compromise that, and they did a fine job adhering to that goal. Plug in conversions showed the car's potential for reduced gas use. Toyota has fully realized it.

You were insulted when I compared the PPI to a conversion. Yes, it is better, but that doesn't make the comparison flawed. The hardware is the same. It is the software hobbling the conversion. I know this is easier said than done, but reflashing the ECM could give the conversion the capabilities of the PPI. The PPI is still a Prius. How does Toyota putting in a plug and a larger battery, make it stop working like a Prius?

 

We can look at the energi to see what toyota could easily do to improve ev dynamics even more in the next generation.

Toyota could modify the psd's maximum speed with ice off. They may even want to change the gearing to the wheels from mg2 or the mg2 motor power itself for a better EV mode. A more powerful battery could add to system hp to partially compensate for the added weight or even give it better acceleration, especially at lower speeds. A beefed up suspension for the added weight may improve handling along with a lower center of gravity and more balanced weight. Key here is that this takes significant engineering, and with a new model coming so soon, the right place to do it is on the next generation.

The main differences between the current phv and a conversion, are better engineering and testing of the system. Software is different to allow for better use of power, and cables and inverters are rated for the higher power levels. Since this is factory warranted unlike conversions, and mass produced, at current real sale prices, the phv is a much better deal. There are conversions to add more energy to the phv through additional batteries.

 

I wasn't aware that there were hardware changes.

 

PiP was intended to launched with Gen3 until the lithium battery production set back.

I think a regular Prius under-utilizes MG2, inverter, etc. PiP takes full advantage of it, as designed.

If Toyota take the route of Ford, gas MPG will be lower and cargo space will be less. Perssonally, I cant wait to find out what Toyota would do with the next gen of HSD. NS4 concept provided some hint but I want details.

 

Perhaps, due to not understanding the true benefit and how it works. For me, satisfication comes from knowing that I will get highest efficiency regardless of which engine it runs (or both).

I think education and setting proper expectation is the key. I get 132 MPGe on electricity and 56 MPG on gas. How many are aware of fuel efficiency of each fuel of their plugin?

 

From what got posted in a couple of other threads, the PPI might not get much. It will see any fuel efficiency improvements that the liftback sees. The 6 mile AER might go up to ten. Not because Toyota wants to, but because it is what CARB mandates for ZEV credits, and likely HOV passes.

Sounds like the PPI won't be nationwide until the next gen.

That could be. What does Toyota plan to do to fix it? I see the benefits of taking it slow, but it can be too slow.

 

Absolutely if they understood the car better before buying it, they may not be disapointed that the engine turned on as often, or might have made a different choice. Absolutely agree with you there.

Many of the surveys don't mention at all that people care about drilling down to the efficiency of each fuel, so that may be a complicated sell to the public. Easier sells are use less oil or lower fuel costs (electricity + gas).

Will people give up 2 mpg gas for an extra 60% electric range (just spitballing 18 miles versus 11 epa)? Surveys say they would. Remember in the next generation prius phv that number should still exceed 50 mpg charge sustain, it just won't necessarily be exactly the same as the gas only version. Further the reduced mpg would be in the city not the highway portion, so overall efficiency of the car would go up, as you would be able to cover all or a higher percentage of city mileage in charge depletion mode.

Cargo space trade off is more of a limiting factor, but given the time toyota has had, I doubt cargo space needs to be reduced much. I would say cargo space and similar design will size the battery more than cost.

 

What would you like to discuss? When I bring up the big picture, it becomes an all-out assault to change the topic to something other than what to sell.

The most hypocritical thing I hear on a regular basis is the claim that Toyota has invested so heavily in the Prius design, they are unwilling to invest in something else. Reading that never ceases to amaze me. GM sold 42,660 Silverado Pickups here last month. How can we possibly be taking the situation seriously by ignoring that? That certainly looks like an extremely heavy investment.

To make matters worse, getting acknowledgement that need requires focus on replacing high-volume traditional cars like Camry, Fusion, Malibu, Impala, Corolla, Focus, and Cruze is basically impossible. That leaves us without an audience to discuss. It started out reasonable having a profitable target being set at $30,000. That got abandoned though. Things fell apart from there... leaving us with nothing to move on to.

Past conversations were attempts to find out what comes next, to move forward. What should our expectations be for mainstream consumers, those middle-markets buyers who are simply looking to purchase a practical & affordable choice that offers higher efficiency and lower emissions?

 

The Volt got close to the $30,000 target when counting the tax credit. Disappointing, but it is what it is. With the price reduction to $36k, it is under the $30k target. Love it or hate it, the tax credit is in affect and will take an act of Congress to change. Assuming no sales growth, or introduction of more models, GM plug ins will be qualifying for the tax credit out past 2020. At the very least, the Volt will be receiving credits into its second generation.

As for getting to mainstream, it will take time for plug ins to get there. Hybrids as a market segment are just arriving to mainstream. Plug ins are being adopted at a faster rate than hybrids in their early days, but the only way to greatly increase the number faster is for Toyota to offer the PPI instead of the liftback.

 

From my annual data, I average 12.4 EV miles per charge.

I thought you knew 6 AER is due to the highway test forced upon onto City EV plugin hybrid (PiP).

I think the EV range of next gen PiP is going to depend on several things:

- Advancements in gas engine efficiency
- Cleanliness of grid electricity (projected average of next 10 years? -- car lifetime)
- Improvement in battery energy density
- Design of the platform to allow better battery placement

 

My guess would be that electricity in US is cleaner? So we are allowed more spoil before gas takes over.

Another guess would be the EV City mode not available in US models. Perhaps, EV City mode may encourage owners to use battery more aggressively. So, the speed limit was lowered to make up for the battery life.

Also, they charge twice as fast as US models due to outlet voltage difference. But then, getting 240V charger here does not change the battery warranty, I don't think.

 

I did. From an article from Green Car Reports, it sounds like CARB is requiring a continuous AER of 10 miles on the test in order for a car to qualify under the ZEV program. From the article: "ARB ... believes that a minimum 10 mile AER requirement for all PHEVs was appropriate and necessary. This requirement ensures all PHEVs receiving credit through the ZEV regulation in 2018 and subsequent model years have some zero-emission capability, which results in GHG and criteria pollutant benefits to California...Additionally, ARB believes this minimum AER requirement is necessary to continue to drive this technology to commercialization."

Surprised you missed the thread. 2015 PIP - Ten Mile Electric Range | PriusChat

In order to get HOV stickers, the PPI will get a higher speed/acceleration threshold before the ICE kicks in. Toyota has also been getting feedback from PPI owners that want more range.

Or because it was just above the top speed on the EPA highway test cycle, while the others have less demanding test procedures. Perhaps Toyota was hoping it would be enough to not trigger the ICE when it did. I understand that the best way to use the PPI is with EV at low city speeds, and hybrid for higher. The 62mph limit muddies those waters when most highways are rated 55.

 

Ask any Prius owner if they would want MPG to be higher. 100% would answer yes. Why not? So, what plug-in owner would ever say otherwise? Whether or not they need it is an entirely different matter.

Most! Where? The highways around here are 60, 65, and 70. There isn't much left that's 55 anymore, just short stretches through areas that hadn't previously been populated... which is why 55 is considered SUBURB now rather than either CITY or HIGHWAY. That's also why EPA estimates are both confusing & misleading.

 

I agree with Toyota and disagree with CARB.

First, PiP is the only plugin hybrid that gets lower overall emission than the hybrid version. PiP is even rated lower emission than Leaf. That's because PiP uses the best fuel for changing driving conditions. That reduces emission, not necessarily AER.

If I choose to drive PiP only in City driving I get 13+ AER miles. Why is CARB so focus on Highway AER because that's what they are asking. CARB was founded on reducing emission (smog) in cities.

So basically, CARB does not recognize my PiP as ZEV even though I averaged 12.4 EV miles per charge. They are taking away that choice away because Toyota would be forced to develop something that may not have the ideal balance.

Regarding the top EV speed, Toyota knew ICE will trigger at the 2nd hill climb of the highway cycle. There was no way around it, published in a SAE paper (2009 or 2010), before the launch of gen3.

Having 62 mph limit leaves a buffer for me, not to enter the blended EV boost mode. I am glad Toyota did that.

 

Would Toyota tell those Prius owners that they feel 50mpg is just right?
{"We have been listening very carefully to Prius [plug-in] owners over the past two years," Satoshi Ogiso, Toyota's chief engineer and the man in charge of developing the next range of Prius models, said then.

"[We] are considering their request for additional all-electric range."}-article in the other thread

Toyota is a company that sells stuff. They are likely going to bow to their customers and the regulations so that they can sell more stuff.

The North East. Expressways here are posted 55mph. So is most of the PA turnpike. Suburb streets might be 50, but mostly 45 at the highest.

Interstates might be higher, but I am only familiar with Rt 95. The limit there doesn't get higher than 55 until maybe Maryland. It definitely goes up in Virginia and then again in North Carolina.

Regardless of the posted limit, if the entire point of the PPI philosophy is to maximize efficiency by using the best fuel for the task, why go up 62mph? As motor rpms climb, torque output and efficiency drop. I know the gen3 gets better on the highway than the gen2, but the ICE still does better at lower speeds. In other markets the limit is lower. That could be for the EV now mode(does Japan get that?), but wouldn't that lower speed improve overall efficiency in North America over the 62 one?

 

It hadn't crossed my mind that we were dealing with a misunderstanding of how the plug-in Prius actually operates. That explains a lot !!

You are working under the assumption that the engine takes over at speeds faster than 62 mph, which is most definitely not what happens.

I get over 100 MPG on my daily commute at 70 mph. So what if the engine is running. The point of significantly improving emissions & efficiency is most definitely achieved.

 

I assumed that the ICE came on to supplement the motor. The blended mode. Then when all the charge from the wall is gone, it operates, mostly, just like a standard Prius.

It would still get the 100mpg at 70mph if the ICE kicked in to help at the lower speed for Europe and Japan. It would just do so for a longer distance since gasoline was supplementing electricity sooner, or, more likely have more energy for EV use at the end of the trip. Overall gas efficiency may drop on such a trip, but EV efficiency and range will go up.

The greater the speed, the less efficient pure EV gets. This actually true of the HSD, but the delta is close, and it better overall for higher speeds factoring in energy density of the fuels. For best overall efficiency of the car, you want the ICE to blend in when the load on it will be in its efficiency 'sweet spot'. The speed threshold for that is different in different markets. It is for reasons beyond efficiency.