Toyota will license WiTricity wireless charging tech for upcoming EVs

Unless the power transfer approaches 100% efficiency, it would be a losing proposition. For example, if I were asked whether I'd be willing to give up any MPG at all for the sake of not having to get out of my car to fuel it, my answer would be "No!"

 

Really, doesn't exist 100% electrical transfer with out any loss.
For many people will be an excellent solution if this will be a port/dealer add on accessory at the beginning in order to introduce the technology in the market. There is many lazy people that could use this convenience of not using the EVSE wand for recharging.

 

I find that often people involved in plug-in advocacy, find these things as gimicks, often anounced to really hurt plug-in sales. Without having ears in the room, its hard to tell whether intensions are good or bad. On the bad side, the idea is press relased. Plug-ins need a ton of infrastructure built, and its costly. Add the price of the pads and its even more. Wouldn't it be better to just use gas, or hydrogen,etc.

Plug-ins are easy to plug in. We shouldn't buy into the idea that they need these recharge areas becase its too much trouble. No one ever didn't buy a cell phone because it was too tough to plug it in. This will not likely sell one more plug-in vehicle.

On the other hand we do have wireless charging pads for our cell phones. I don't own one but I see some people have bought them. If its a money making accessory, and people want it, no problem. I don't think the extra electricity use will really bother the people that want to spend extra for the ease of use.

 

For the convenience of not plugging in, I'm willing to boost the electricity cost for charging my cell phone from 5 cents a month to 6 cents a month. But I'm not willing to boost the cost of electric "gas" for my car from $100 to $120.

By way of analogy, look at how full-serve gas stations have been decimated by self-serve gas stations. People are willing to pump their own gas to save a few cents. This gimmick sounds like the functional equivalent of the failed full-service stations.

It's possible that accessories like this are offered for their PR and advertising value, and prospective customers feel enthusiastic about them even though they end up not buying. And this announcement creates the aura of a technology on the move. Reminds me of a console device I once did development work on, which was mostly for entertainment, although it theoretically could run educational applications. The client made a point of offering those educational applications, even though they weren't good and nobody wanted them. But people felt happier making the purchase of the console, thinking it had potentially redeeming value, even if they never followed up.

 

I was always very much against this, as everything I know so far about it, screams "ENERGYLOSS" to me. But there is definitely something to say for e.g. manhole-cover chargingspost in shoppingstreets, where non-poluting electrical delivery vehicles can charge while they are offloading... In such a case there are other considerations besides the pure cost that might make it a worthwhile innitiative, like not allowing or wanting any exhaust fumes in a pedestrian-only city centre.

I'm starting to see more and more chances for this. But I won't buy one soon for my cell phone...The contactless chargingstation for my toothbrush is the only such energy waster for some time to come in my house...

 

And yet somehow you drive an ICE car (even though its a hybrid) that's 30% efficient max, when you could be driving an EV that's 70%+ efficient for not a whole lot of $$:
Mitsubishi i-MiEV Price Drops: $12,995 !!! | PriusChat

You are the last person who should be complaining about energy losses.

The comments here reflect what one would expect in a PC thread: geared towards a tech-savvy, early adopter, mathematically-literate point-of-view, rather than trying to see things from the general public's point of view, writ large.
Toyota, on the other hand, is a for-profit company that needs to factor in how everyone will adapt to the new tech, not just the techie crowd. Toyota is a car company, not a tech company (in fact I would argue there is only one car company that is also a tech company: Tesla), so this technology is something they think will drive sales based on focus groups and consumer studies; I can assure you they don't see it as a marketing gimmick.
This is classic Toyota. We have seen this over and over. They eschewed EV's and high-AER plug-in's in favor of standard hybrids. Why? Their consumer research told them to.
They are pushing fuel cells, because their consumer research says people want cars that mimic the refueling/range capabilities of a gas car (though I think they are wrong on this; time will tell)
Now, they are pushing wireless charging. Let's not forget Infiniti and Tesla are too. This is a trend, not a fad.

You're failing to see the big picture. People out there may not be 'lazy'. Tell that to a soccer-mom with 2 bags full of groceries getting out of the car with 3 screaming kids and a million things on her mind. It's convenience and peace of mind. Why does Best Buy and every grocery store have automatic sliding doors? Surely people are too lazy to open their own doors? Wouldn't it save electricity to have regular doors? No, because people have things in their hands. Ditto for cars. Heck, while we're at it, why not get rid of automatic garage doors? I'm sure people were calling those a 'gimmick' back in the day when you had to get out of the car in the rain to open your garage door!

I agree, its hard to find out what the intentions are, but the notion that it is rolling out to deliberately sabotage plug-in sales....is a bridge too far. As I mentioned, Tesla is working on the tech too, and no one could argue they have a conflict of interest with EV's (but Toyota does, with its FCV program). This tech is designed to enhance plug-in sales, not sabotage them.

You lost me here. Surely you don't believe the gargantuan infrastructure requirements of H2 compare in any way to putting a charging pad in every garage!?

There are ways around this. First, it could simply be rolled into the price of the hybrid system, as a standard feature. Or, it could be offered as an option. If the "lazy" crowd is wiling to pay more, what's the problem? Adding the part to the underside of a car should be minimal expense - possibly even a dealer-installed option. And because Toyota focuses on hybrids rather than larger-battery plug-ins, even making it a standard feature would still allow it cost less. A PiP w./ wireless charging would still be much less than a Volt.

Again, tell that to the soccer-mom housewife. Hate to be sexist, but for some reason I think women in particular will really go for the tech. Let's also look at their routine. You and I and most everyone on PC wouldn't have a problem plugging in every time we parked in the garage, because it is a priority for us, and we clearly know the benefits of electricity displacing gas. That's not true for the public at large. If it's not convenient, it will fail. Imagine the soccer-mom's day:
-drop kids off
-come back home
-run errands
-come back home
-go out for an appointment
-come back home
-go out for groceries
-come back home
-meet a friend for coffee
-come back home
-take kids to lessons
-come back home
-pick kids up
-come back home
Would you and I plug in at every 'come back home'. Probably. Would she?

There's no real comparison to cell phone charging pads (which are a gimmick). No one is carrying 2 bags of groceries or have other things in their hands (or on their mind) when they plug in a cell phone. Besides, the average Joe gets the implications of a dead cell phone.....the implications of less EV range when there's plenty of gasoline still in the tank are more nebulous.
I've advocated for small-battery PHEV's with wireless charging being a superior solution in promoting PHEV sales (and competing against EVs) in a previous thread, and I feel vindicated now that Toyota is doing just that.
It's all about the formula: frequency of charge-ups is proportional to convenience. Sure, a Volt or a LEAF could adopt this technology, but they already have enough EV range that it would be an unnecessary cost. Not so for the PiP and similar low-AER PHEV's. Look at the soccer mom's routine above. Every time she comes home, she charges up, and because the PiP battery is small, it's relatively fast (I think these wireless systems are L2....so PiP could charge to 100% in 1/2 hour). So, said soccer mom is effectively in EV mode the entire day, meaning she gets all the benefits of a Volt without the larger up-front costs. Take away wireless charging, and she's just another standard Prius driver........or "lazy".

+101%

 

It sounds like a neat idea, but I always wonder if the delivery truck or bus would actually get enough charge during the stop for it to have an impact that would make it worthwhile. First, there is the extra charging loss which can be increased when the vehicle isn't positioned perfectly over the charger. Then there is the delay has the charger and vehicle 'handshake'. Are the miles gained after that worth the cost? If you still need a large battery pack in case of insufficient charging on the route, just invest in the battery and few emergency plug in chargers for them.

I can see it working with buses and trash trucks. They have a preset route to follow everyday. This makes placing the chargers easy. I think some UPS, FedEx, etc routes might be regular enough for it. For USPS routes where the letter carrier parks the little truck, and then walks a few block circuit, a plug charger would be fine. Then it could be made available to other plug ins in the evenings and Sunday.

That's just it. Once the general public sees the extra cost associated with it, I think the general public will lose interest. One of the earlier reports of wireless charging and Toyota had the system going into a Lexus. The system will add more to a car in cost and weight than a foot operated tailgate. Then there is the additional cost for the home charger.

Do to the cost and possibility of incapability, there won't be many public chargers installed along with the plugged ones. Which leaves it just for home use. It does seem attractive to those with kids and bringing home groceries. The level of integration between cars and smart phones is increasing though. I think all the current plug ins allow you to check up on them through the phone. Most cars have a gps unit even without the nav option. If not that, they have a clock. Once the initial newness wears off of the wireless chargers, most will find having the car text them if it isn't plugged in at home or has sat so long without charging useful enough when comparing the cost.

 

Agreed. It won't take off on mass scale (e.g., public stations) until there is a standard.
Witricity has an advantage here since they use resonance technology versus induction, and Toyota was wise to partner with them....it gives them first mover advantage.

Look, we are talking about Toyota here. You know......the company that thinks it's a good idea to have a trillion-dollar H2 infrastructure built (at someone else's expense) rather than get consumers to change their fueling habits and range expectations.

So, it is not surprising that they want to make the charging of plug-in cars as seemless as possible to the user. They are truly worried that consumers will not take to the new habit of plugging their car in. So, you might have it backwards......consumers will reject plugging in, period - wired or wireless - from Toyota's point of view. If everyone were plugging in their car today, then you would probably be correct that consumers would reject the extra cost of wireless, since they know how easy plugging in is (and what the benefits are).

But since the whole concept of plugging in a car is foreign to 99.9% of American drivers, Toyota is simply exploring options to make the whole thing as easy to swallow as possible.

You may be right, and it will be sales failure - time will tell.
Let's not forget that smartphones were around for years before the iPhone, and eagerly used by the techie crowd. But they didn't take off with the general public until they easier-to-use Droids and iPhones. What's good for 'us' isn't necessarily so for 'all of us'.

 

If that truly is Toyota's view, then it would explain some things. The reasoning is flawed though.

The hold up for adoption isn't the hassle of the plug. I know people say it, but it is more a rationalization for a fear of the new and unknown, not because they truly think plugging in is really a chore. The hold up is range. Most of the affordable BEVs' range is borderline when it comes to meeting a suburbanite's year round needs. Range anxiety is real. They aren't going to put down the cash for a car that might not get them to work and back to home when the temps get below freezing. A wireless charging method isn't going to change that.

Well, it might in that a person won't have to get out to plug in at a public station when it is cold or wet out. Which relies on there being a wireless charging infrastructure for them to use. Toyota has shown no interest in building up the hydrogen infrastructure to support their FCEV. So why should we expect them to do so with a wireless charging one?

I do see wireless charging being a popular option on high end BEVs. It is a nice convenience feature. So is a SKS system, but people aren't going to pay $500 to $1000 for just it on their $20k to $30k car.

 

They probably did a bunch of focus groups. They asked if this would be appealing to you...many/most said yes. Of course it is appealing. But once you add in the extra cost and the extra wasted electricity it will be a failure, IMO.

[quoteLet's not forget that smartphones were around for years before the iPhone, and eagerly used by the techie crowd. But they didn't take off with the general public until they easier-to-use Droids and iPhones. What's good for 'us' isn't necessarily so for 'all of us'. [/quote]

Easier to use is one way of looking at it. But the big advantage was really that the viewable screen area was bigger which meant that web browsing was practical and useful.

Mike

 

At less than 5% penetration of plug-in and hybrid vehicles it is doubtful that the pov of a tundra or taco driver will help build a sucessful plug-in. We do have those real plug-in drivers, and we can ask likely plug-in adopters.

Again here is the possible thing from focus groups, one problem is the cost of installing a home charging system. Focus groups have not said a problem is plugging in the car at night, but its an available technology from cell phones. Lots of people working on it, but consumers are not asking for it.

They actually marketed that small battery plug-ins are better, and fuel cells are best of all. They said people will pay for fuel cells but plug-ins. I doubt consumer research came up from that. Its internal toyota. Hey the prius was internal toyota also, people were not asking for the prius in 1997, but once some bought the prius people were asking for the changes for the gen II. How about those that have plug-ins, what do they say about the problem with plugging in?
Comprehensive Study of EV Drivers Reveals Plug-in Attitudes | PluginCars.com
Yep, it doesn't even come up. The price of installing does though.
4. Home charging stations are too expensive.

That is 68% say it cost too much for home charging. Perhaps being able to plug into a regular 240V dryer outlet would help, tesla does this. Wireless charging is just going to increase these costs.

 

I agree with you for present day technology, but imagine a future where we could recharge on the go!!

 

Convenience is a big draw for future PIP owners. As stated above, people are busy on a daily basis: trips around town, drop off / pick up the kids, commuting to/from work. They don't need the additional hassle of plugging in on a constant basis. I find it a hassle plugging in my diesel pickup engine heater in the winter on a daily basis.

Toyota, has a very good approach to the inductance charging method. It could very well increase their market share of PIP owners.

DBCassidy

 

Toyota just needs to expand the availability to increase their market share of PPI owners.

It isn't a question of if people want the convenience of wireless charging. People are lazy after all. The question is will they be willing to pay for it. I don't think they will.

People are already calling the installation of a EVSE at home high. This will increase that. Doesn't matter how low Toyota can get the cost for the hardware on the car if the owner doesn't want to cough up the cash for the charger at home. Then the car hardware becomes dead weight and wasted materials.

There won't be wireless public chargers for awhile, if ever. First there is the issue standards. I believe the the SAE is discussing a standard for induction charging. Great for any induction systems that come out, but this system uses magnetic resonance. Then there is another one being developed that simply spins a magnet to spin one on the vehicle to drive a generator, like a lab stir plate.

The frankenplug and Chademo just require another cord on the charger. A charger that can service multiple wireless types is going to have a higher cost increase than an extra cord. A cost that will be higher to begin with. Then the charger won't be able to charge as many cars without more cost.

The cord on a public charger can reach multiple vehicles. As much as 6 to 8 depending on the parking space layout. The plug can just be moved from car to car when the charging is done without the *cough* hassle of moving the car. These wireless systems would require a charge pad at each space to perform that.

 

Charging standards will include SAE, but also IEEE. This will help standardize on a global level. If, and when urban centers allow only BEV vehicles, FC into their city, perhaps this could convince the public to try a BEV.

Until then, small, steps forward seems the right approach to take.

DBCassidy

 

Convenience a factor, yes.

Taxi stands at airports and elsewhere could get at least a partial recharge while cabbies are waiting for fares, same for companies that operate a fleet of company cars (would not have to depend on employees remembering or taking time to 'plug in'. Some stores that cater to upscale customers could have special parking lot for EVs. Etc....

Parking spots with wireless charging would no doubt have wireless communication as well so that cars being recharged could be billed wirelessly for the energy transferred.

Question is... is electrical grid in urban and suburban areas able to handle the surge of power required to reharge dozens, if not hundreds, of cars.

'Fast charge' serviice stations might require a dedicated electrical substation to supply their needs, especialy if there are several in the same vicinity.

 

Or a diesel generator.

 

I haven't seen 1 plug-in taxi in the US. You would need critical mass to pay for the infrastructure. People seem perfectly able to plug-in when they park at shopping centers. I doubt you will get more customers by installing a more expensive pad that can be used by fewer cars than having industry standard L2 and possibly L3 charging.

The latest california survey seems to say people are not willing to pay very much for charging. I'm sure in this scheme maybe you can put them in prime spots and really charge for the good parking. Gouge those plug-in drivers good But again its not likely a good business model versus having plugs available except in areas of high theft and vandalism.

1000 cars at L2 6.6kw is only 14 MW, its not a big percent. The local infrastructure may need help for the surges, but not the generators. Everyone turning on air conditioning at once is a bigger spike in demand for a city, but these are likely just in a small area. Remember if you are encouraging it, it is the most expensive electricity to produce. You could have different rates depending on Time of day. Say it was at peak demand you might charge $1/kwh for charging, while charging at home might cost less than $0.10/kwh between midnight and 6 am to accurately manage demand for plug-ins.

'Fast charge' serviice stations might require a dedicated electrical substation to supply their needs, especialy if there are several in the same vicinity.[/quote]

L3 is a whole different matter. I doubt you are going to do that wirelessly and pay for the loss. We are talking 44kw times 1000 cars all pluging in make 90 MW which may be quiet a spike on a small part of a grid. Cars may cluster at rush hour and lunch time. You definitely don't want to encourage that without checking out the infrastructure.

 

lol.
On an expensive system, you coordinate with the grid and perhaps add battery back up. Diesel would be very expensive to maintain.

Key on tesla system is large number of cars to stations needed. This requires big batteries.