NEW!!! Service Bulletin for Engine Knocking at Startup T-SB 0012-10

Aaaahh.........maybe,....... some of us are not convinced

 

Just out of curiosity, the 1.5l IM is, apparently, made of aluminum. Is there anyone out there that has had the opportunity to "disect" both and see what the difference is in the design?

 

I have occasional misfiring at startup, seems to occur at different occasions when the temperature is low or frozen. Is this the issue reported here ?

 

If it sounds like the engine is trying to come apart, that's it.

 

But, no worries, no harm done! ......

 

So I have had this 3 times in the last 2 weeks already with our recent Chicago cold snap. Twice when I started up with the coolant temp at about 38 F in my garage, and once with coolant temp at 14 F at work parking lot. Temp is from my Torque Android app.

I wonder if there is a "best practice" way to shut down or start up the engine to reduce the probability of this happening. I read someone on Priuschat say immediately flooring the accelerator after the ICE starts. Perhaps this more quickly clears the condensed moisture that is maybe shorting the spark plug, if that indeed it is the root cause.....Have you ever tried lighting a gas stove after you just washed the burners.... sometimes the built-in electric igniter is clicking for 4 or 5 seconds before the gas lights...... Moisture which has a level of conductivity could be evaporated off by applying an increasing voltage to the plugs to evaporate off the moisture. When the moisture is gone the conductivity would then go to zero (current would stop flowing). Perhaps this could be implemented in software if the spark voltage is variable and controllable by the ECU (or just apply full voltage to the plugs for the 10 seconds or so before the engine starts). It would be interesting to see if this "knocking" happens in areas with very low relative humidity even during the cooler portions of the day. Does Nevada have low relative humidity in the mornings? Note: Desert areas don't necessary imply low relative humidity (Lima, Peru having a humid desert climate comes to mind)

PS. I also noticed when I had this issue last the engine had started immediately instead of the usual 10 second or so wait. Hope my findings may be of help in honing in on the root cause of this, which must be affect thousand if not ten of thousand of owners who haven't chimed in on PC.

 

Saw this first time yesterday & today (SE Minnesota "polar vortex" :] ). Sounded like a diesel after starting yesterday (left outside at <-15F). Started this morning in garage (about 20F) and sounded like engine wanted to jump out (for about 5 secs). Will see what today brings

 

Just had this happen to me this morning. I moved the car in the garage last night and the ICE kicked on for a second or two before I powered off. 2010 Package 5 btw. I started it up this morning to warm it up and it sounds like my neighbors F250 diesel. Definitely seems like a misfire but no CEL code came up. I went back in the check the car and it was idling fine. I've read for probably an hour here - what is the best bet? Run 93 in winter and heet or take to the dealer. Doesn't seem like they've nailed it yet as my neighbor has a 2012 and hers did the same thing the other day. I'm still under 60k so may be worth at least reporting. Thanks!

 

Please report it to your dealership and or Toyota.

 

Hi @all guys.
I'm writing from Italy and there I follow the Hybrid Synergy Forum mantained by The Tramp.

I've a Toyota Auris Hybrid (MY 2013) since April 2013. Ok, it has the same powertrain (maybe with little enhancements) of the prius gen 3, so 1.8L as displacement and HV battery of circa 200V.

As today my car has about 17800 km (about 11200 miles) and I already did the first service after 15000 km (about 9400 miles).
Yesterday I turned on my car after 6 day without being used. It was recovered in my garage and the temperature (north Italy) were about 3 or 4° C (about 37° F), so not so cold.
In this video (it was the third start up attempt) you can hear strange noises

You can see the video on youtube appending (after the youtube web address) the following string:

/watch?v=7Uu4b1v9kMg

(sorry, this is my first post and it's not possible for me to add links)

(there you can see my mother screaming "turn it off", clearly in Italian language )
During the 2 previous attempts (not filmed here, but happened about 1 minute before), the noise was worse and loud than the one you can hear in the video above.
Do you think that this strange noise is related to the problem of this thread? Is the noise above similar the typical noise that someone of you had in the past?

FYI yesterday my Toyota dealer told me that it was a temporary problem related to insufficent fuel flow toward injectors after 6 days without usage. There were also no error stored in the ECUs, but onestly I do not believe them so much.
Moreover, since this vehicle is a new model (end 2012, begin 2013), I expect that the problem stated in this thread should be already solved ... don't you?

Thank you for your time

 

In the video you made

that is exactly the sound I got, like rapid banging. Looking at another youtube video

at about 1:10, it appears disconnecting one of the spark plugs can recreate the same noise, which suggests one of the cylinder not firing is what is happening. Whether it is spark, moisture, fuel or lean condition related, I hope Toyota is at least looking into this avenue. It could well be that they know the cause but the proper fix is far too costly.

 

Has anyone heard of any legal action, class action against Toyota over this problem? The general concensus is that all gen 3's have this problem but only those living in cooler environments have experienced the issue. Over the holidays I spoke with an individual who lives in the Phoenix area. He was visiting relatives in southern Indiana and had the problem on a 2012. He contacted the dealer where he purchased the car and, effectively, was told not to worry about it, no big deal, watch it when he gets home. Call them if it happens again. Temps out there in 70° range and will be heading higher. Slim to none on the chance scale, unless it happened on his way back. I gave him my number but didn't hear anything. As of today, I have not heard anything more from Jeff Wyler Toyota since I stopped on 11/20/13 and was told they would decide what was next and let me know. I called today and my service rep is now working in the service department and the service manager has not returned my call. I also have a call in to my case manager @ Toyota, USA. Something needs to get Toyota to move on this issue. Anyone have any suggestions? Personally, I'm getting close to the point of talking wiht someone in Indianapolis about the Indiana Lemon Laws and see if anything can be done that way.

 

Class action for what? What are the damages?

If they knew what is causing a few to misfire, they would fix it.

But I agree, I dont think Toyota is really looking for a solution, just collecting data.

 

I'll add my 2 cents here too.
I had experienced mild occurrences of this in my 2010 the past 3 years. My car was parked in our garage (attached garage but not heated and poor garage door insulation) for 4 days during the recent cold snap in the midwest. I went to start it yesterday so it could warm up before leaving and it was as if the engine was going to rattle out of the bay, the worst I have ever experienced. It happend so long that I had a chance to stand up from starting the car, grab my phone off my belt clip, open the wrong app on my phone, and then get to the camera app and still get 5 seconds of video recording of the knocking.

I took it right to toyota on my way to work along with the TSB in hand. I handed it to the guy in the shop and he quickly asked "is the check engine light on?"
I said "no".
He then replies "then this doesn't apply to you"
I quickly replied " hold on there chief, this says if it has one more more of the following.... check engine, rough starting, or knocking/rattling"
He goes "oh...." looks at the TSB for a minute then says "I'll be right back"
He goes to talk to who I would guess is the repair shop manager for a couple minutes.
Comes back and says "you'll have to leave it with us so we can try to get it to do it again"

Needless to say after some arguing about just putting the fix in and not having to replicate the issue but the car was left with them to replicate. It was down to about 5 degrees last night so hopefully it'll do it for them when they try to start it this morning.
I guess the plus side is that its documented in their system as occurring on my car now, which i thought i have done in the past but they said they couldn't find anything reported on it.
We'll see... I expect to get a call about noon today saying they can't replicate or find anything wrong.

 

I've gotten class action law suits against companies for less. We don't really know what the possible extent of long term damage to the engine when this happens. I'd say there would be a more realistic class action here than for the recent bank of america telemarketing thing i got the other day.

 

Eliteconcept,
Can you kindly, take note or be sure to ask what intake manifold part number they install?

There appears to be many versions being used and some of the new ones have not helped the issue, since it does rattle again.

Hopefully you get a new design number.
You might want to take along the model numbers posted on this thread for reference.


thx.

 

Sure I'll post a scan of my work order IF they actually do the repair, i have terrible luck of stuff like this not being replicated by people when i try to point it out to them.

 

On 4/16/13 they replaced the original that ame on the car in 3/12 (17120-37052) with ##-37054. I have the same problems as before.

 

1945steve,
Ouch!
That's good info but not good from a fixing stand point.

So the folks heading off to the dealers PLEASE take note and ask plenty of questions.
Be sure to ask if any of the cars with new IM experience the problem again? etc.

 

Damages? Being red faced and laughed at in the parking lot at work when you start up. Or.....The nearby people that hear it thinking to themselves, I'm not going to buy one of those Prius's that I might have been thinking about up to now.