Toyota Auris Excel Hybrid UK with a flat battery again

"I suggest that Auris owners will need to use an AGM battery charger periodically (2x per month for example) to keep the 12V battery fully-charged. When the original equipment battery dies, see if a larger battery can fit into the available space. It might be necessary to modify or replace the battery bracket to make this work."

Yep, fair point, however, if I wanted to charge my car regularly, I would have bought a Nissan Leaf, Chevvy Volt, or a Tesla (if I could afford the $$$).

Someone at Toyota seems to have problems with simple physics.
A small bucket with a hole in it, with less water going in, than out, will soon be empty.
Every time the bucket is emptied, it is damaged, and holds less water, so empties sooner.

Mr T, is that so hard to understand?

G...

 

He is only trying to help you Geo. He isn't a Toyota employee. A way of keeping your car on the road until Toyota find a fix.

 

Oops! Apologies, it does come over a bit shouty. Definitely not aimed at anyone but Toyota.
Certainly not any posters on the forums.
G...

 

Yes, i do agree, at this very moment, the only way to live with the problem is to use an AGM battery charger, commonly we use the CTEK MXS. Toyota have to solve the problem, urgently. EU is made mostly of people that lives in flats and park their car on the street: most people can't even use a charger for lack of on AC outlet....

 

You sure? I think it really depends on which Country and which area. Some towns and cities have lots of flats, others lots of houses. I think in the UK it's 60% of houses that have their own off street parking.

 

I realize this is Toyota's problem to solve for there customers. I note that the battery has the same terminal layout as the gen1 Prius "positive on the right" opposite to gen2 and3.
Looking at possible replacement higher capacity batteries that would fit, can one of the Auris owners measure the OEM battery fitted and also the maximum dimensions that could fit in the available space.
Going to a larger capacity battery would help, but really this would only be plastering over the cracks.
Another stop gap measure for those parking outside would be a solar charger inside the car.

John (Britprius)

 

I was really worried when I left my Prius at the airport for 14 days, it worried me because I left OBD Bluetooth adapter plugged in, I don't know the power draw but one red led is always on, so there must be some stdby power draw.

Anyway, I was really happy when a 4 year old battery started the car with no problem.

There must be a problem with Auris not charging battery with enough power, I doubt it's the 35Ah fault and I doubt that there are so many faulted battery's.

 

Dear Auris owners:

To help confirm or refute these assertions, it would really help if someone (or several of you) would actually measure voltage and current so that you can start to establish what is typical Auris behavior.

1) quiescent resting current when the car is IG-OFF, all doors closed and locked, Smart fob far away (more than 15 feet.) This requires disconnecting the 12V battery negative cable and inserting an ammeter in series. Yes, you guys can actually do this without causing harm to the car.
2) Voltage across 12V battery when car is IG-OFF and has rested overnight (this will show approximate state-of-charge, 12.9V represents 100% charge of AGM battery, 11.9V represents approx. 0% charge.)
3) Voltage across 12V battery when car is READY (this will directly address the assertion above regarding how well the DC/DC converter is maintaining voltage on the 12V bus, and therefore, applying charge to the 12V battery)
4) Voltage across 12V battery when car is IG-ON and headlights on (the difference between the voltage measurements at 2 and 4 is is an indicator of the battery's capacity, the bigger the difference the weaker the battery is becoming)

This discussion is becoming like people debating how many teeth a horse has, while no one bothers to actually go out, open a horse's mouth, and count. After a while, don't you think it is silly to swap opinions without basing them on some facts??

Right now, the only facts which appears well-established are that 1) numerous Auris owners have complained about no-start issues which appear tied to the 12V battery, 2) they are not too happy with the service response of their dealers and 3) the Auris battery has 35 Ah capacity vs. 2G/3G Prius and Lexus CT200h at 45 Ah capacity.

We haven't made much progress beyond that.

It would be nice if Toyota Europe would step up to the issue and resolve it for the owners. Until it does so, my suggestion is that it might help Auris owners to learn about the technical characteristics of the car so that you can figure out whether the problem is something you have to live with as long as you own the car, or if there are any actions you can take to mitigate the issue.

You don't know what the Auris design specs are regarding quiescent current draw, but we at least can compare your measurements to Prius, whose behavior is well-known and understood here.

Or else, resign yourself to buying a portable jumpstart device, frequently using it, and continue to complain about the 12V battery needing frequent changes...

 

True enough, however it only needs to happen once, then the battery starts to sulphate, thus effectively damaging the capacity.
From this point on it's a very quick slippery slope to a dead battery.
A reconditioning charge from a good quality charger (CTEK or similar) will help restore a battery to a reasonable condition, but will never be 100%.
Each full discharge will damage the battery further, giving it less and less capacity.

As previous posters stated, the only way to avoid this is a regular maintenance charge.
This assumes you have easy access to AC power near the car.

Re. Measuring the battery, previous readings from my scanguage the 'Ready' voltage is 14.2v,
This drops to 13.2v on Power off (assuming a fully charged battery).
This value decreases by about 0.2v per day.
Scangauge has been disconnected since this problem started, as it does have a small draw.

Still looking for a battery data logger, as it's difficult to keep track of quiescent and changing current loads.
It's a bit like Schrodinger's cat, as soon as you open a door or tailgate to check the meters, the readings all change.

G...

 

Thanks for your help Patrick. I've posted your comments on the UK forum to gain maximum exposure and hope that the owners will now attempt to resolve the issue taking note of your comments, rather than whinging about how unacceptable the situation is.

I did try by giving this issue exposure, you tried also, but it appears the ball is now well and truly in the affected owners court. Let's hope they play it rather than drop it.

 

Yes. You need to place the meter in a location that can be seen when all doors and the hatch are closed and locked. This may require the use of wire extensions. It will take a minute or two for the current to drop down to the ultimate quiescent value.

Grumpy, I also appreciate your comments and support.

 

Yes, that seems extraordinarily high, and it would be nice to have some Auris owners confirm or refute those measurements. Also, was the Smart fob nearby when the 0.6A measurement was being taken?

If the current measurements described above are in fact normal for Auris, then it makes no sense to say that the Auris has electrical components that require less quiescent current drain compared to Prius and that is why a smaller 12V battery was installed as standard equipment.

 

Ignoring the first discharge rate of 600 ma, a discharge of 60 mah would give a daily discharge of 1440 mah close to
15 ah in ten days.
This level of discharge would be very close recommend deep discharge level of 50% for AGM batteries for reasonable longevity. If left for 21 days we are at over 30 ah, and 28 days gives over 40 ah loss. All this assumes you have a fully charged perfect condition battery to start with.
I understand the OP's car has an intermittent discharge on top of this, but if the figures presented are correct the battery plainly does not have enough capacity.

John (Britprius)

 

I have done much testing on the gen2 Prius charging system. I have seen voltages as high as 14.6 volts (calibrated instruments) with charge rates of over 50 amps with a good battery at 60% discharged. The voltage drops to 13.8 volts when the battery is at full charge.
The gen3 Prius has temperature compensation, and I have not done any tests on this version.
I do not know if the Auris has temperature compensation, but cannot see in your picture any sensor on top of the battery.
Checking the battery voltage at the end of each day, and again before the car is put into use would quickly find if the car is discharged at the end of the day or if it discharged while standing.
The charger is built into the inverter and the unit would be changed as one piece.

John (Britprius)

 

Hi Running,

I did a lot of cheks about charging current in motion, mostly reading and recording the 12V PID with Torque but also double checking with the "secret menu" in the Touch system, that i think reads the same PID that Torque reads. So technically is not a workshop measure with professional equipments. Nonetheless, the readings makes sense.

Invariably the reading in motion measure 14,7V sometime, 14,5V often: those are in actual fact the currents given by the DC-DC converter and not the battery tension. The charging value should be 14,7V for an AGM battery so it fits well with a system trying to recharge.

When the battery is full, the reading of the DC-DC conv. should go down to 13,5V (always in Ready/motion), that means no charge. This is the value that you can sometimes read, so it should OK.

The point is, from my recordings, that the reading 13,5V became a extremely rare reading. This is my recent test:
- 5 days the car parked unused in garage with the charger connected.
- long trip of 500 km with Torque registation after that
- Few km from the start, the tension goes down to 13,5V, i was an happy men.
- Few other kms, daytime, no lights on, the value turned to the charging value of 14,5V, to remain there for other 250 kms, going breifly to 13,5v for no more than 20 km, and coming back to 14,7-14,5V for the rest of the trip.
- 48 hr parking after the 500 km trip: before starting, putting the car in IGN ON, HV battery not connected (of course), the tension was 11,6V, unbelievably low for the previous full charging due to the charger and such a long trip.

So, yes, unless the battery has not been ruined, i think ther's a problem in recharging during motion.

 

It seems, from Toyota Germany, that some attention is been given to the circuit of the hazard switch.
But it hardly explains why only the TOP AURIS versions are affected, the ones with smart key and all the electronic optional stuff....