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Earthships

Discussion in 'Environmental Discussion' started by 2007blueprius, Jan 3, 2014.

  1. Corwyn

    Corwyn Energy Curmudgeon

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    Only in that you didn't include solar heat gains through the window... Or there could other things, I didn't convert to check, I am used to imperial units.
     
  2. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    I was not calculating net gain, just heat loss based on the provided U value.

    If 264 Wh/day is the correct heat loss per square meter at a 20C temp gradient, then it seems to me that windows will be a net heat gain into the home for all but the most severely clouded climates.

    Then again, my physics skills are at best rudimentary and I might be way off base.

    addendum: from wikipedia --

    U is the inverse of R with SI units of W/(m2K) and US units of BTU/(h °F ft2);
     
  3. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    Corwyn,

    This study
    http://web.mit.edu/parmstr/Public/NRCan/nrcc18674.pdf

    measured net heat gain in the winter using different windows at locations in Canada. I'll call this a stress test of windows :)
    Double pane were rarely net negative, even in Winnipeg*. The study is from 30+ years ago, so I'll presume U values are much better today. I know my fixed double pane (with air) have a U value of 0.31.

    E.g. In December when the delta T was ~ 35C and the incident radiation a measly 340 MJ for the month ( ~ 3 kWh/day), the net heat gain was -28 MJ. The values are per square meter.
     
  4. 2007blueprius

    2007blueprius Member

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    this is interesting please continue, I have to read this again to catch up, when I mean the south wall I am refering to the outside double panes, plus the buffer/thre seazon storage, plus the inside double pane, there are 2 glass walls I was planning on, that R 1.8 sounds like up up the inside glass wall, if you added that up too would be more like R 3 for the living space? still irelevant just trying to follow, in retrospect say I were to spend some serious cash and do both glass walls with some highteck tripple pane R 10 glass, the living space south wall if you will total R value would be about R 20 + 0.68 for the buffer air? something like that?
    I may have to look that up, I also came across the double studded wall concept reading about passivhaus, sounds to me something of the like is almoast a must for that outside glass wall.
    I like where this is going, this all started with building a tire house right on the ground, it's pretty obvious by now how bad of an Idea that was, I like the passivhaus concept and honestly if one is to atempt a passive solar design it's pretty obvious good insulation and air tightness comes first, less you need the better off you'll be
     
  5. 2007blueprius

    2007blueprius Member

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    first of I was planning to have both glass walls at least double pane, and I am still planning on having 2 glass walls regardless so comparing the two glass walls to 1 tripple pane not so realistic, if anything say one of them would be something fancy, likely the outside one, I would still have to do another say plain double pane inside glass wall.

    can you point me to some good reading about what is available as far as glass, you got me intrigued, where a plain double pane is about R1 they must have some fancy gas in those tripples ( kripton ) to reach R20, isnt that gas going to escape eventually? most argon windows do leak it out, part of the reason I wasnt considering getting fancy.
     
  6. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    I recalculated again using a different method, and still conclude that double-pane windows for my home in Abq were a good choice, and the best value.

    MI is most certainly not Abq though, so I am not in any way suggesting that what works here would be a good idea there. I am only suggesting that Blue can reach some decent conclusions with straightforward calculations. I used pvwatts to find out the incident radiation in my area, and assumed 70% transmission through the double pane glass. In fact, if you want to be lazy like me, set the DC rating to 0.8 and the derate to 0.7 to match solar insolation of about 800 watts/meter_squared and 70% light transmission, then you can directly read the kWh of solar heat gain per month per square meter from the generated table from the column labeled AC. Note that this is Heat_in only; heat loss has to be figured separately. Using this method, I find that my windows gain 3 kWh and lose 0.1 kWh per square meter each day.

    For average outside temperature I added the average high to the average low for each month , and divided by two.
     
  7. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    My double pane, fixed windows have a U = .31, = to an R of 3.22
     
  8. Corwyn

    Corwyn Energy Curmudgeon

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    Light transmission is not the stat you want, rather SHGC (Solar Heat Gain Coefficient), which is usually given on the tag of windows. Some double pane windows are down around 0.3 SHGC. Not right for me or 2007blueprius, but possibly for you.


    Heating degree days (see: Heating & Cooling Degree Days - Free Worldwide Data Calculation ) are a better way of finding monthly heat losses. Simulations with actual weather are even better.
     
  9. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    Corwyn,

    Right about SHGC -- I used transmission loosely. My windows are about 0.7 (clear glass)
    Heating degree days correlates very well with the average I calculated -- either way will do so long as a month at a time is considered.
     
  10. Corwyn

    Corwyn Energy Curmudgeon

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    Maybe.

    Once you have decent windows on the outside, I would recommend forgetting the inner ones. Good windows on the outside make the hole in the wall, net positive. In other words they contribute to keeping the house warm. The inner windows are now blocking light, preventing solar heat gain, and cooling off the buffer room when it is cold outside. If you think of being in the middle of a bunch of insulation, the temperature halfway through is going to be halfway between the inside and outside temperature. That is what you will get (absent other considerations) in your buffer room. While without the windows, that space will be room temperature, at a cost of heat loss thorough the extra surface area (which can be made fairly small).

    That's it exactly. Double studded walls are one of several styles, personally I prefer a Larsen truss made with i-joists over a standard 2x4 stud wall, with the outer sheathing of the standard wall taken as the air/vapor barrier. Details are important though.
     
  11. Corwyn

    Corwyn Energy Curmudgeon

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    Not in New England it won't. :) :rolleyes:
     
  12. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    I take your word for it -- I only checked the validity for my home.

    Any idea why NE is different ?
     
  13. Corwyn

    Corwyn Energy Curmudgeon

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    A plain double pane window would be about R-2. Those triples are around R-10, selective coatings, gas filled, and with very small frames. Here is an example: Passive House Windows and Doors | Intus Windows | Residential U-PVC Windows and Doors
     
  14. 2007blueprius

    2007blueprius Member

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    you guys lost me allready, so plain glass blocks light? those fancy tripple panes are made to alow more light in than plain glass?
    originally I was planning a plain studded wall with whatever glass I can get my hands on for cheap, the initial Idea was that the solar gain would keep the living space warm which is insulated by 2 doublepane walls and say about 6 ft worth of buffer zone, I still like the idea of a bufferzone regardless of glass used, what are you telling me exactly if I end up using quality glass on the outside the inner glass wall will be a detriment to heat gain?

    would it be a better idea to come up with some kind of solid wall/sliding door heavily insulated that can be opened during daylight and closed at night? just a thought

    are you telling me that good quality windows on the outside alone, is better than adding the second plain wall or 2 walls of plain doublepane?
     
  15. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    My rule of thumb: Each pane of clear glass blocks about 13 - 15% of incident radiation.
     
  16. 2007blueprius

    2007blueprius Member

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    christ what was that about 0.3 shgc, thought that ment it only lets through 30 % rather than block 30% does a triple block 45% or that is made of some special stuff, how about the witerisation plastic commonly sold at HD it's main purpose is to eliminate drafts
     
  17. 2007blueprius

    2007blueprius Member

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    here's some fudged up data, I can not think of a better term.
    I have been a heating and cooling teck for 8 years, in conventional thinking that is, and my airconditioning always been problematic thou I never cared much, personally I think it's overrated for this location, tou most of the population is fanatic about it, same people that bitch about the furnace not keeping up in the winter also bitch about the AC in the summer, I kid you not dealt with this many times just because it is there and on demand regardless of cost most people will bithch if they cant maintain 90F in february same people will bitch if their AC does not bring the house below 60 in august, funny thing is at some point in april on the first sunny day same people will switch theyr themostat from 90 F heat to 60 F cool overnight and than bitch that the AC coil froze up.

    I have a point to make it's comming, I was just tinkering on the degreeday website earlier posted, funny thing is the code arround here requires I think 74F at 4 feet above floor something like that, if you punch in 48174, pich the DTW aiport station and run a HDD at 74, your furnace should run in july some :LOL: , further more if you look at CDD the numbers in july and august are lower than the HDD actually neglijable at best breaking even, so in theory I am vindicated, there is no reason for an aiconditioning sistem arround here, a white roof properly insulated and enough thermall mass should do the trick, for example in my drawings if I were to leave the outside doors open so whatever liitle solar gain I might get can vent out I should be all set for cooling, did I get this right or I misinterpret it.

    at the same time goes to showhow bad current housing is, mine is a major solar colector in the summer an a total R value a little above zero in the winter,
     
  18. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    Here is another website for average temps and degree days at your location
    Climate Averages by ZIP Code

    Notice that if you multiply the (65 -average_temp) by 30, you usually get quite close to the degree days. Negative results in the summer are cooling degree days. If you want an even closer result, multiply by the actual days in that month (28 in Feb, 31 in Dec ...)

    So e.g, January is your coldest month, and averages 25F outside. If you assume an interior temperature of 65F, the delta is 40F, = 22.2C.

    A window with a U value of 0.3 (R = 3.3) will lose 0.3*22.2 = 6.6 watts per square meter of heat through the month, or 6.6*24*30 = 4752 Wh in the month. The last calc multiplies watts * (hours in a day) * (days in a month)

    For you Imperial/American folks,
    1000 Wh = 1 kWh
    1 kWh = 3412 btu
    1 square meter = 10.76 square feet
     
  19. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    The average T outside in the summer is a modest 70F, so yeah, active cooling would seem to imply poor house design or use. I would just keep in mind though that for many people the AC is actually running to lower the humidity.

    I know you said that you like humidity, but you must consider it for the sake of the house. Mold is a bitch. While we have been talking temps (and they *are* important), I suspect that your house will actually succeed or fail based on how well you deal with humidity and water infiltration of the home envelope. This is particularly true for a home that tries to implement passivhaus concepts.

    Corwyn has hinted as much, but I"ll just be blunt and say it: the building technique is every bit as important as the design. If I was in your shoes, I would find a passivHaus builder in my area and volunteer on the construction site for the equivalent of a summer.
     
  20. Corwyn

    Corwyn Energy Curmudgeon

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    Ahh. No, R-values are also different in imperial units versus metric units. (And of course U-values as well).

    1 U-value (BTU / (ft^2 * hour * °F) = 5.68 W / (m^2 * °K)

    Sorry for the confusion.