Non-hybrid cars that give Good Fuel Economy (highway)

The U.S. is also small car phobic, and has different emissions and safety requirements. Because of the later, I cannot consider EU-only models.

Your translation of NEDC to EPA is suspect. It is better to directly compare NEDC ratings.

Among Large Family Cars, Prius Liftback gets 72 or 73 mpg, and 89 or 92 g-CO2/km, depending on model year. A couple diesels come in at 74 and 76 mpg, but their CO2 ratings of 98 g/km show that their mpg is not high enough to overcome the greater carbon content of their fuel. One diesel that does do better (86 mpg, 85 g-CO2/km) falls down on other pollution, getting a poorer rating on nextgreencar.com.

Among Small Family Cars, several diesels beat or match the Lexus CT200h for greenness and raw mpg. But for CO2 emissions, none beat it. One does match it, and its mpg (the best of the diesel bunch) is higher than the the CT200h mpg by the same ratio as their fuel's carbon ratios. So for practical purposes, the best gasoline-Atkinson engine and the best diesel fuel engine appear to have matching efficiencies.

This shows up in the NOx emissions, the lean engines release a lot more of it.

 

Diesel engines tend to have high(er) compression ratios, that are matched by Atkinson and EGR.

Diesel engines have low(er) pumping losses than Otto, that are matched and and exceeded by Atkinson

Comparing cars' MPG as a surrogate for diesel engine efficiency is a poor test because of differences in car weight and aero, amongst others.

 

I have a question about your Insight. Why are you only getting 60.2mpg and the OP is getting 89 lifetime mpg?

 

So you go from 0 to 45 instantaneously and stay there? You never hit red lights and traffic never slows you down?

 

As Troy said, most of his driving is at about the best speed for MPG. Most of my driving is either doing 75MPH on the freeway (tank bringing it home) or city. The original EPA ratings were 61 city, 70 highway, the revised ratings are 49/61. So I'm still beating the new ratings and my city driving about matches the old city rating. I'm slightly above the average for the Gen1 Insights on Fuelly, which seems to include more "normal" drivers than most fuel economy trackers.

 

Close for highway, not at all in the city.

 

Yet he hadn't been the one to bring in hybrids to the discussion. Could he have more clear, yes.

The more efficient gasoline engines are still Otto. Better valve control can allow Atkinsonizing during periods of low demand for improved efficiency. Direct injection is the big gainer in modern engines, because they allow higher compression ratios while not requiring higher octane fuel. Regular gas actually holds efficiency back in the fleet.

I don't know about actual machines, but I believe diesel engine engines still hold the thermal efficiency advantage in the lab over gasoline ones.

I don't see how that is possible as long as the Atkinson still has a throttle plate.

Wayne Gerdes got over 180mpg in an Insight during a competition. Perhaps over 200mpg at another. I don't follow it, just picked up some bits in other sources. So, I suspect his record is higher.

Whatever Wayne got, the original Insight, with federal emissions and manual transmission, was a mpg monster in the right hands. As long as the battery was good.

 

The BSFC curve is shifted to the left.

 

The Prius C is rated as a Small Family Car in the EU.

The VW Polo seems to be placed in a smaller vehicle category, SuperMini. Did you forget about the Yaris Hybrid also in that SuperMini category?

The source I used above shows a VW Polo 1.2 TDI BlueMotion, 81 mpg combined (highway and city not separately listed), 91 g-CO2/km, and an excellent green score. But the Yaris Hybrid gets the same 81 mpg combined, a significantly better 79 g-CO2/km, and a point better green score with far less NOx.

Several other diesels in the same category get even better mpg (one even gets a point better green score), but none by the ratio of diesel's higher energy and carbon content. Thus, a gasoline hybrid still leads that category for minimum carbon emissions and apparent efficiency.

Which category are you going to pull out next?

 

You drive 45 mph on the interstate? All the time?

 

What one person does in a competition is not comparable to another persons lifetime mpg. Bob Wilson is able to get over 1000 miles on a tank in a Gen I Prius, that doesn't mean its a realistic lifetime mpg. I could def believe 89 mpg is possible under the right conditions but I cannot believe 89mpg as a lifetime mpg. There are too many stopsigns/lights/other cars/cold weather/other roadblocks. And no matter what anyone on here tells me, I would have to see it for myself. If its true (for a lifetime mpg) then, I'll eat my words but, I don't think I'll be hungry anytime soon. I could be wrong but, I doubt it.

 

When one claims that diesel powertrains are more efficient than gasoline powertrains, except for the most efficient gasoline systems, then that exclusion should be clearly stated, not left as an implicit assumption.

 

Bon Appetit.

Those were manual transmission Insight I, and the techniques used were (to me, anyway) pretty extreme. E.g., I doubt those cars ever saw over 60 mph, perhaps not over 50 mph. The traction batteries were abused by deep discharging, and the transmissions were abused through manual shut-off of the car while moving for energy free gliding.

Suffice to say, that while I enjoy reading Gerdes' exploits I would *never* recommend that someone buy a used car from him.

 

Ok, so what was his lifetime mpg? Was he driving to car to work and everyday driving or was he getting on a closed course to max out mpg? I would have to see it and experience it to believe it.

 

Ah Jaysus lads, can we all not get along??? lol

Troy sticks up a semi-controversial topic and then others battle it out while he sits back

 

buying a new car and selling after the first year depreciation by following you statement, is unlogical
logically, car is a disposed item/appliance, unless antique/classic car

every decision on buying car should be logical such as:
1) what car do you need, family car? performance car? two doors or four doors cars?
2) average miles for 1 year driving or monthly driving
3) what route you are using: mostly Interstate? mostly local/secondary roads?
4) do you plan to grow your family?
5) how long do you want to keep your car.
6) what type of usage for your car
7) etc as long as stick with objective with the car.

bashing hybrid versus non-hybrid is not logical, unless we do comparison in technology and other objectives specially directly to the car.

"perhaps" is not logical, unless he stated in the post.

useful life is never ending as long as, the owner can maintain the car mechanically and regular maintenance.

 

we need to relax . remind me on Trojan Horse (war).

 

I don't know the specifics of what he did, but I doubt it would harm a manual transmission. The Insight already has autostop (the stock usage is similar to start-stop in some other cars, mainly to save fuel when stopped, not for gliding like in the Prius). Putting in in neutral and killing the engine doesn't hurt anything.