Repair costs associated with Hybrids

anyone taken a vdub in for a repair lately?

 

I would distinguish Toyota's motivation from its dealers. Toyota has exerted reasonable efforts to make it easy for third parties to service its vehicles:

1) readily available technical information via techinfo.toyota.com which is really an inexpensive way to communicate factory service manual information. Toyota does not force users to buy paper manuals which could easily approach $1K for a full set, just for one model and model year.
2) the availability of the New Car Features manual which provides a theory of operations, vs. the repair manual which explains what to do to resolve a problem, but usually not why you are doing it.
3) the availability of some free technical information for Toyota vehicles via autoshop101.com, including a substantial section on hybrids
4) the availability of Techstream Lite which at $1,345 is reasonably priced from the point of view of a service shop specializing in Toyota vehicles
https://techinfo.toyota.com/techInfoPortal/staticcontent/en/techinfo/html/prelogin/docs/tsliteflyertinfo.pdf
5) as previously stated, Toyota has been quick to offer recalls on many Prius issues which other manufacturers might ignore or gloss over. I personally have felt that Toyota has been more than generous in this area. This reduces the overall maintenance cost borne by Prius owners.

It is really easy for new car buyers to obtain dealer cost information and obtain quotes from several dealers. Most of this can be done on the web...That combined with the cost of financing new vehicle inventory helps to drive down the profit margin on new car sales.

I believe that dealer service and parts departments are under great pressure to show substantial profit as new car sales become less profitable:

1) labor rate prices >$100 per hour for staff who might be paid at the rate of $20-$25/hour
2) parts department prices that substantially exceed Toyota's MSRP, for example at some California dealerships. Compare to MSRP and actual retail prices for Internet sales, offered at dealerships such as Autonation Toyota Gulf Freeway (Houston, TX):
AutoNation Toyota Gulf Freeway Parts
3) recommending unnecessary services to their unsuspecting customers, such as induction cleaning and fuel injector cleaning (when no drivability issues exist), brake service when plenty of pad and shoe lining remains; or engine coolant pump replacement (when the actual pump leakage is almost nonexistent.) And the pricing for those services is high enough to really be a poke in the eye.

So I would assume that the dealers are trying to maximize their profits short-term, not caring if they irritate their customers or not.

 

Maybe it's time for Toyota in the US to offer fixed price service and repairs as they do in the UK. They are still not cheap on replacement parts e.g. for Prius gen2 prices with fitting :-
Front pads £100 $160
Rear pads £95 $152
Front disc & pads £220 $352
Rear discs & pads £210 $336
Battery 12 volt £95 $152

With this system you can check the price before going to the dealer, and all dealers charge the same price. Toyota also often contact you after work has been done, and ask for your opinion on the work carried out. They also give a one year guarantee on the work
As an example of savings on the above prices I replaced the discs and pads all round for less than £90 $144 against the above price of £430 $688 and the discs I used appear to be better quality than the OEM (much less prone to rust).
Good quality batteries are available with much longer guarantees than the Toyota replacement (up to 5 years) at less than half the price with many suppliers happy to fit at no cost. The battery cost from Toyota however does include fitting making it cheaper than the US counterpart, but with only a 1 year guarantee.

Services are fixed price, and now come with a free "hybrid system check". If the car passes the HV battery is given "once out of guarantee" a 1 year 10,000 mile extended guarantee at no cost. This is for cars up to 10 years old with no millage limitation. The test can also be done without a service for a fee of £39 $62.
Service Prices for gen2:-
Intermediate £139 $222
Full £209 $335
Full + £269 $430
These prices include materials and taxes, and as stated the hybrid test.

John (Britprius)

 

In the US, due to the Sherman Act (antitrust law), manufacturers cannot dictate prices of their independent sales channel partners such as dealers. That would be an example of vertical price-fixing.
Sherman Anti-Trust Act legal definition of Sherman Anti-Trust Act. Sherman Anti-Trust Act synonyms by the Free Online Law Dictionary.

Hence we have the concept of MSRP which is "Manufacturer Suggested Retail Price". The dealer can ignore the suggested price. Usually you would expect intrabrand competition to result in prices below MSRP but in some cases like automobile parts, dealers in high-cost parts of the US can get away with actual prices above MSRP. This may be because it is not easy for an average automobile owner to figure out alternative sources for those parts.

 

In the UK the dealerships are franchises. Meaning the franchiser (Toyota) can dictate the maximum prices the the dealer can charge and where parts and materials are sourced from. The dealer can sell at a lower price, but not a higher one. Toyota can also withdraw the franchise if the dealer does not give good service to it's customers.
In the UK we have many franchise companies, a number in the fast food industry, but by no means restricted to that.

John (Britprius)

 

on my observation, sadly true!


my past experience with Hyundai Dealer, seems identical the good thing is Hyundai parts price are less than Toyota :|. or even cheaper buying Hyundai part online via dealer site than directly.

I do not know on Toyota for a long run,
on my observation on our Sienna 2011, bought on 2010: Toyota is a bit Pricey on car maintenance, BUT..... Hyundai dealer will give me a heartattack for fixing my car (Sold Tiburon). their hourly labor cost is insane for me.
I mostly fixed my Tiburon(sold) by myself for 11 years,since tiburon community that I used to subscribe has A lot of technical information compared with Siennachat or PriusChat.

 

"It's hard as a whole to have a certain price structure as each state has their own laws on what they would allow and not allow." I'm not aware of any state laws that impact product pricing. Each state is free to assess sales tax on a transaction, but there are no state regulations affecting pre-tax price.

A manufacturer who sells across the United States is engaging in interstate commerce and this activity is regulated by the Federal government.
interstate commerce legal definition of interstate commerce. interstate commerce synonyms by the Free Online Law Dictionary.

 

"I'm not in the pricing field but I thought there was a federal minimum wage that all states are required to meet and then there's a state minimum wage that each state sets on their own? It's a very complicated formula and it wouldn't be possible to set prices because the wages are different throughout the 50 United States."
It is true that there are federal regulations regarding the minimum wage, and in some cases a state may establish a higher minimum wage. The minimum wage potentially may affect costs incurred by a business.

A minimum wage regulation has very little to do with price. A business may set whatever price it wishes. Some issues to be considered by the business manager include variable and fixed costs, the profit margin required, competitive considerations, the desire to grow market share, etc.

Regarding the availability of non-dealer service alternatives, my belief is that someone with a technical inclination who can master the electronics content of a hybrid automobile may be more likely to seek other employment alternatives such as computer technician, hospital equipment technician, etc.

 

That is their problem.

Moreover, Toyota does not own the dealerships in the US, so even if I were to take my car into a 'Toyota' dealership no money would flow to Toyota other than for parts and that would be true regardless.

You may not have a place to repair your car that you trust outside of a dealership, but that is a YMMV.

Bottom line ? the cars are super reliable, and simple DIY is simple. So while my local dealership(s) are nothing to sing praises about, I don't care. If I ever need a mechanic I'll pick the best/best_value in my area -- 'dealership' or independent as it may be.

 

Toyota and the dealer are in it to make money. That's not surprising. Dealers make more money off of service than the sale of the car.

Your water pump example is similar to what I'd expect on a normal car. I think on my Odyssey it would have been $700-$1000. The parts aren't much, but it's a significant amount of labor. I changed my own when I did the timing belt and it took me the better part of a Saturday. Most ICE water pumps are driven off the timing belt/chain, I believe, and take a fair bit of effort to get to them.

The Prius is one of the most reliable cars on the road, that would seem to go against your theory. I mean, if they are trying to make more money off of repairs or to push you into something newer, why make them last so long and break so infrequently? The GM SUV I traded had a reputation for pricey repairs well under 100K. $4000-$5000 transmission failures, $1500+ steering racks, $500+ AC lines, $1500+ AC evaporators, timing chains (usually under warranty) and more. Many of these things were failing within the 36K warranty. Mine had an AC line go bad at less than 2 years old but out of warrant due to miles and even with GM good will it cost me $200. I'll take the Prius with its reputation for rarely breaking even if that failure might be pricey and require the dealer to fix.

All modern cars can rack up some significant repairs and dealers tend to be more expensive than independents. Yes, hybrids require specific knowledge that some independents wouldn't have, but that is also true of other cars, perhaps to a lessor extent. I don't think there's a grand conspiracy, just businesses trying to make money.

 

In the past there has been at least one equipment content requirement set by the state.

I can recall that in the 70's New York required all new cars sold in the state to be equipped with a rear window defogger. In some cases this ended up a manditory dealer-installed option.

 

I agree that individual states may establish regulations that impact product configurations and, therefore, product costs. For example, California has set the pace for the United States with regards to emissions control regulations, since California has had a significant problem with automobile emissions in Los Angeles/Orange County and (to a lesser extent) San Francisco/San Jose.

The Federal government made an exception to allow California this flexibility. Other states can either follow CA or Federal regs but cannot establish other emissions equipment requirements. For example, the Texas state legislature could not decide that no emissions control equipment is required on new vehicles sold there.