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Unsolved Battery Drain (with detailed troubleshooting)

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Care, Maintenance and Troubleshooting' started by Auto Engineer, Aug 14, 2013.

  1. Auto Engineer

    Auto Engineer Enthusiast, Engineer, Mechanic

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    Semi-long story.

    Background:
    Earlier this week I noticed that the doors were having trouble unlocking. It would go through five sets of double beeps trying to unlock the doors. About 25% of the time, one of the drivers door wouldn't unlock. Odd I thought, did some searching and found that the Prius lock actuators appear to fail over time (see: Fixed: Door Lock Actuator in Gen II Prius | PriusChat). Others suggested 12V auxiliary battery issues. I just replaced the stock 12V with an Exide AGM FP-AGM51JIS in March (~6 months ago), so I assumed it wasn't the aux battery. I thought I'd dig into the locks further this weekend.

    Today, when I attempted to start the car after work, I got the red exclamation light. I checked my ScanGuage and noticed the voltage was 9V. Odd, I thought as it always reads 12.X volts after sitting for hours. I shut the car off and restarted. Somehow it mustered enough power to kick on the electronics and start the engine. I drove home to get tools.

    Troubleshooting:
    My thoughts are either (1) that my battery has an internal short or (2) my car has an external short somewhere. I disconnected the negative battery cable and measured the current (car fully off, all dome lights off, ScanGuage disconnected). The measurement was 1.5-1.6A. This seems really high I thought. I did some searching on PC and found reports of the JBL amp being stuck on and drawing high current (see: Auxiliary battery keeps dying | PriusChat). I pulled the audio and amp fuses. No luck, still the same current draw. So I meticulously pulled each fuse in the driver's side foot well (2-3 at a time) and tested. Again no luck, same current draw. Also pulled all the fuses and relays (2-3 at a time) in the fuse box under the hood. Still no luck, same current draw. I did not pull the 30-100A fuses that are all tied together.

    Battery voltage during the testing was between 10.7V and 11V. After some time testing, the current draw dropped from 1.5A to 1.0A, but this appeared to not be related to fuses, as it couldn't be repeated with the same circumstances. Regardless 1.0A seems very high. Others (such as Patrick Wong) report the "power-off draw" to be 20-50 mA. I assume these are utilizing the same method that I described via the battery ground.

    My expensive multimeter won't power on (not the battery...ugh another issue). But I measured the current with two inexpensive Harbor Freight-style multimeters. Both measured the same current.

    Also, no check engine light on the dash and no diagnostic trouble codes are reported by the ScanGauge.

    Questions:
    What am I missing? Are there any other fuses or relays to check? I would assume all relays are fuse protected.

    What else could cause this large current reading? Does the car register a lengthy current spike for sometime when reconnecting the battery? I measured the current for up to 30 seconds when "completing the ground circuit" via the multimeter and the current seemed consistent.

    I left the negative battery disconnected to prevent further battery drain and battery degradation.

    If the battery truly is draining at 1.0-1.5A, it would drain 12-18 Ah when sitting overnight, which is probably consistent with dropping from 12V to 9-10V. The battery is reportedly 45 Ah.

    Thanks to all for any guidance.
     
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  2. Flying White Dutchman

    Flying White Dutchman Senior Member

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    lock yourselfs inside the car then lock and than check amps
     
  3. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    1. Put a charger on the 12V battery for at least an overnight period, so that it doesn't deteriorate further.

    2. Reinstall all parts that you had previously pulled for testing.

    3. After the battery has been charged, reconnect it to the car.

    4. Open the driver's window so you can easily enter the car if you have a problem with the door locks.

    5. Open the hood. Remove the cover over the main relay/fuse box near the inverter. To do this, push hard on the latch at the front of the cover, then pivot the cover up and remove it.

    6. Open the red cover over the dedicated positive jumpstart terminal. Find the 10 mm nut that secures the positive battery cable to the stud and remove it. Use long nose pliers to pull the cable up from the stud.

    7. Turn off the two cabin overhead lights and the hatch light, using the switches. (The reason for doing that is to avoid further current draw when you open a door or hatch - since your ammeter typically is protected by a 10A fuse.)

    8. Close the hatch and all doors and lock the car.

    9. Put the current meter in series between the stud and the cable. (I assume you do not have an aftermarket alarm which monitors whether the hood is open or not.)

    10. Observe the current flow, wait a minute or so. If the quiescent current draw is over ~20 mA, you have a problem.

    11. Start pulling relays in the main relay/fuse box, one at a time, to see whether that has any impact on the current flow. If you find a relay that impacts the current flow, test it with a 12V source and your ohmmeter to see if it is stuck in the closed position. If so, replace it.

    12. Note that you can find relays in the main relay'fuse box, in the relay box over the engine, and under the instrument panel on the driver's side. Try to keep the doors closed when you are doing the testing. An open door will cause the body ECU to activate and wake up other ECUs, potentially also powering up the brake actuator motor. Obviously all of that will impact the current draw.
     
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  4. Britprius

    Britprius Senior Member

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    The reason for the gradual fall in current drain from 1.5 amps to 1 amp is because the current drawn through a given load is a function of the voltage applied. Basic Ohms law. Current flow in amps (A) equals the voltage (V) divided by the load resistance in ohms (R).

    So A=V/R
    Using your figures beginning at a load of 1.5 A = 12 V/8 ohms
    when battery voltage falls after discharge 1 A = 8 V/8 ohms
    As the voltage falls so will the amps.

    The load resistance will alter with temperature difference especially if it is a light bulb as the resistance of most metals goes up as the temperature goes up so a hot filament bulb (giving out light) will have a higher resistance than when it cooler (running on a voltage much lower than it's design voltage) but this is ignored in the formula for clarity.

    John (Britprius)
     
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  5. Drdiesel

    Drdiesel Active Member

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    WOW! Some really fun stuff here :ROFLMAO: First off, you can't break the circuit between the battery connections and get
    a proper amperage reading. The ECM and other control modules will power up every time you reconnect it with the meter. You're gonna need a switch between the negative post and the cable to do a proper parasitic load test.

    You need to install the switch and close it. Start the car can allow it to run for a minute. Shut it off and hook the meter across the switch like my drawing shows. Turn the meter on, close all the doors and reach in through a window and open the switch. Check the amperage draw and wait for it to drop. It drops as the computer control modules go to sleep.
    Some take up to 20 plus minutes to shut down. Your amperage draw should drop to anywhere from 20 m/a to 50 m/a.
    Anything over 50 m/a should be considered an excessive draw. In a perfect world a 35 m/a reading is ideal.
    You can also trip the latch on the door/hatch and leave it open to gain access to the battery. As long as it turns off dome lamps, it's okay. You can't disturb the system while the switch is open or it could blow the meter fuse. It will also power up the modules. Make sure and remove the key from the car and place it far enough away that it can't detect it, or it will keep the system active. I suggest you get your good meter working for this job.
     

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  6. Auto Engineer

    Auto Engineer Enthusiast, Engineer, Mechanic

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    Thanks all for the assistance. Troubleshooting while stressed and at midnight is never a good situation.

    Battery is on trickle charger to top it up from 10.5 V to ~12-12.5 V. I'll have to reinstall and continue testing tomorrow evening.

    Patrick Wong - Good writeup. That is pretty much the the procedure that I used, but I tested at the battery versus the battery post under the hood. The one difference is I left the rear hatch open, which definitely kicked on some of the ECUs and electronic components. Testing in the front is probably easier since there is no hood switch in the factory alarm. As an alternative, presumably we can leave a door open as long as the door plunger switch is clamped in the closed position, correct? Is the door ajar only measured by the single switch per door?

    Britprius: There was no voltage drop associated with the current drop. Voltage throughout testing was within 0.2-0.3 V range (approx 10.7 - 11.0V). Also the drop from 1.5A to 1.0A, was instantaneous, not gradual. It happened twice but could not be reproduced. I think it might have something to do with the various ECUs dropping to sleep mode as Drdiesel suggested.

    Drdiesel: Good info. I didn't even think about the SmartKey being in my pocket. I'm surprised the ECUs take that long (20 min) to go to sleep. I have a battery post switch, but I'll have to leave the back hatch open to access it as I can't access it from a window. Since it's easier, I'll try Patrick's method first to see what the immediate current draw is upon reconnecting. This may not be the exact parasitic load, but it may be good enough to help me diagnose the problem. If it's 0.1A or less, then it may be a battery or charging issue and not a drain or parasitic load issue.

    The Fluke multimeter is dead. It seems to be an issue with the LCD screen. I took it apart and this element doesn't really seem repairable. I'll have to pick up a new one.
     
  7. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    Yes, if you can devise a way to keep the driver's door switch in the "closed" position that would be fine.

    The Smart fob needs to be at least 15 feet away from the car when you are ready to measure quiescent current draw. If it is closer, it will start to communicate with the car which will increase battery current draw as the Smart ECU, body ECU and immobilizer ECU power up. I believe you will find that the quiescent current draw will be reached after just a few minutes.

    I have had to replace the LCD display on my Fluke 87 once so far. A few of the elements are starting to not be as dark as they should be, so I may need to order another from Fluke soon.

    Until you obtain a new display for your Fluke, you might try cleaning the display border with isopropyl alcohol to see if that helps improve the conductivity between the display and the DMM display circuitry.
     
  8. Auto Engineer

    Auto Engineer Enthusiast, Engineer, Mechanic

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    Just an update on this issue. I 2A trickle charged the battery overnight until it was 100% charged (~12.5V). Later that day, I retested and it was down to 10.6V. I repeated the process and got the same results.

    I returned the battery to the Exide distributer, as it was only 5 months old. They are a large distributor and near the Exide US headquarters. They had never seen one of the Exide Edge AGM batteries go bad (including all models). They tested it and got the same results. They were dumbfounded at the issue.

    The battery had never been significantly drained and was driven far enough each day to fully recharge the battery. The previous OEM battery had no issues, but I proactively replaced it because it was almost 6 years old and had an overnight resting voltage of around 11.7V.

    After a couple of days, overnight resting voltage when installed is normal (12.2V+ on the ScanGauge), so I think the issue was the faulty battery and not battery drain, but I'll give it more time to confirm.

    Despite my apparently bad unit, I do think the Exide Edge AGM FP-AGM51JIS may rival the Optima for best auxillary battery for the Prius. The Exide is a direct drop in, has a longer warranty (48 months free replacement), and has higher specs (75 min reserve capacity and 45 Ah capacity). It's rated at 440 CCA, but mine tested at 705 CCA. It's also significantly cheaper. I purchased mine for under $120 + tax (after rebate), which is much cheaper that the $200 Optima.
     
  9. Britprius

    Britprius Senior Member

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    Auto engineer I have the same opinion as you with the Exide battery. Even more so in the UK where the Optima is more than double the price of the Exide. I do not however use either battery opting instead to use a AGM mobility battery of the same size but rated at 62 AH capacity.

    John (Britprius)
     
  10. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    I take it that you have not tried to measure quiescent current draw yet?
     
  11. nh7o

    nh7o Off grid since 1980

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    If the battery has a shorted cell, then 12.5V would be about as high as it is going to go. I would expect that the battery would tend to feel a bit warm afterwards, as most of the charge is dissipated in the electrolyte.

    There have been reports of premature 12V battery failure here, so it does happen.
     
  12. Auto Engineer

    Auto Engineer Enthusiast, Engineer, Mechanic

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    Patrick - Haven't tested the quiescent current draw. I haven't had time to research and order my multimeter replacement yet.

    nh7o - Are you referring to the temporary surface charge being above 12.5 V? I suppose that value depends on the charger, as float chargers can run as low as 13.5V and trickle chargers and speed chargers can run 14.4V+. My trickle charger was running at 14.4V, so you are right that a battery with a bad cell would report about 12.5V with surface charge and 10.5V in a rested, no load state.
     
  13. srivenkat

    srivenkat Active Member

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    Any further updates on the Exide? I suspect mine (still the original) might need replacing in the next few months and so I am curious. TIA.
     
  14. Auto Engineer

    Auto Engineer Enthusiast, Engineer, Mechanic

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    The new Exide seems to be working well after 8 months or so. Resting voltage is over 12V after an overnight sit. I'm not sure what made the prior battery have a cell go bad. Based on the feedback and number of these batteries that the distributor sells, I think it must have been a fluke manufacturing issue.

    For the price, I still think the Exide may be the best auxillary battery for our cars.
     
  15. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    "Resting voltage is over 12V after an overnight sit."
    Well, how much over 12V? If 12.1V, this is pretty bad. If 12.9V, then your battery is great. I suggest that the battery should be fully-charged, then see what happens after it rests overnight.
     
  16. Auto Engineer

    Auto Engineer Enthusiast, Engineer, Mechanic

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    It's about 12.5V as measured with a ScanGauge, but this is with a slight load on the battery as some ECUs are active via the Smart Key system. I haven't recently manually measured it with a multimeter outside of the car or without the Smart Key present.
     
  17. srivenkat

    srivenkat Active Member

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    12.5V is not very reassuring. My 4.5 year old OEM Yuasa reads not drastically lower (~12.2 this morning). This is right after I get into the car which means the brake actuator had just run to completion before I checked my ScanGauge II. Per others' instructions here, whenever I get a replacement, I intend to:

    1. Make sure it's at least 12.9 V to begin with.
    2. Put my CTEK MUS 4.3 on it overnight.
    3. Make sure the resting voltage after a day after disconnecting the charger is in the 13.1 to 13.2V range.
    4. Install the battery.

    Perhaps, you can run thru the above over a weekend and see if you end up with a over 13V resting voltage? If you do see 13V but then see 12.5V after a few days of using it in the car, perhaps there's some unusual draw in your car or your inverter/charger has an issue?
     
  18. srivenkat

    srivenkat Active Member

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    Also, you might compare yours to the below where 12.5V is reported while in Accessory mode:

    12 volt battery for 2009 Toyota Prius | PriusChat

    There seems to be at least a 0.2V difference between yours and paphylliman's and that too considering he is in Philly and you are in the much milder SF Bay area.
     
  19. srivenkat

    srivenkat Active Member

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    Also, how long are your trips? If they are very short, that might explain the lower battery voltage.
     
  20. Easy Rider

    Easy Rider Active Member

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    Highly likely that neither of those things will be possible.

    The "nominal" voltage of a wet cell battery is 12.6.
    Recent formulations seem to have raised some to 12.8.

    You will never see above 13 except immediately after a charge......or in the car with it running.