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France curbs Paris car drivers to combat dangerous smog

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by bwilson4web, Mar 16, 2014.

  1. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    'prius in paris', it has a nice ring to it.;) but then i suppose, like all things french, citroen rules the day.
     
  2. GrumpyCabbie

    GrumpyCabbie Senior Member

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    The Peugeot Citroen group sell BEV's and have done since 2009 with the Citroen C-zero. It was released before the Leaf.
    Renault have a number of BEV offerings. Peugeot have 3 hybrid models, though are all diesel.
     
  3. El Dobro

    El Dobro A Member

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    I'm not sure now, but I thought I read somewhere that Europe has EV or quiet zones. GC?
     
  4. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    Tongue in Sheek*, I think.

    *Amalgam of Sheik, Cheek, and Chic ;)
     
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  5. wxman

    wxman Active Member

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    Regarding the air quality episode in Paris, a complete air monitoring profile would be needed to attribute the AQ problems to any particular source(s).
     
  6. wxman

    wxman Active Member

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    It should be noted that in the U.S., the EPA's average lifetime emission factors used in its MOVES mobile emissions model is lower across-the-board for model year 2014 diesel passenger cars (except for NOx) than 2014 gasoline passenger cars, including PM10 and PM2.5.
     
  7. GrumpyCabbie

    GrumpyCabbie Senior Member

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    I don't think it's the 2014 cars that are the issue. More like the 1993 diesel car, the 1999 taxi and the 2004 diesel truck.

    And ultra small diesel cars are very popular in France too. I understand you don't need a licence to drive one. They're like your neighbourhood electric vehicle size, yet diesel powered. Now those stink! Aixam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
     
  8. telmo744

    telmo744 HSD fanatic

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  9. GrumpyCabbie

    GrumpyCabbie Senior Member

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    Highly illegal here. You'd probably get picked up by Plod and would definitely fail your 12 monthly emissions test.

    But I believe other parts of Europe have different safety and emission rules and test frequencies.
     
  10. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    If it's the diesels causing the smog, it is the NOx emissions.
    While particulates are visible coming out the exhaust, I don't think they have much to do with smog development.
     
  11. telmo744

    telmo744 HSD fanatic

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  12. wxman

    wxman Active Member

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    This is exactly why I don't like the term "smog". It's too ambiguous.

    Photo-chemical "smog" is mainly a result of high ambient ozone concentrations. The contribution of NOx to ozone production is extremely complicated in that it (NOx) can either create or destroy ozone, depending on local air chemistry.

    High levels of NO2 can cause a brownish haze. Visibility restrictions are often the result of sulfate particulate.

    Again, more monitoring data would need to be known to determine the cause(s) of the AQ episode in Paris.
     
  13. GrumpyCabbie

    GrumpyCabbie Senior Member

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  14. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    In our area, we have pollen counts available. Do the EU weather or public health departments do some similar air quality reporting with details of what is in the mix?

    Bob Wilson
     
  15. GrumpyCabbie

    GrumpyCabbie Senior Member

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    Yes, at least in the UK. We get pollen count, UV count (yep, even in Blighty!) and a pollution index too. Presently mine is Low for pollution.

    BBC Weather - Hampsthwaite

    I do think it's the EU's love of diesel pre Euro 6 compliance that's the problem here. In France nearly every car is diesel and even small cars have a popular diesel option. Here we're running about 50/50 for petrol/diesel with petrol slowly starting to creep back up on diesel.
     
  16. wxman

    wxman Active Member

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    I've been trying to locate a site which provides speciated PM data in Europe, but haven't found anything yet. Do you know of one GC?

    Since conventional (unfiltered) diesel PM is primarily EC (AKA BC), speciated PM data which shows high percentages of EC component in the PM would logically point to exhausts of older diesel vehicles as a primary source.

    If the PM has high percentages of organic carbon (OC), then the source in most likely petrol, either directly emitted (petrol PM is primarily OC as opposed to diesels' EC/BC), or formed secondarily from the oxidation of raw gasoline vapor (also a OC known as secondary organic aerosols - SOA).

    According to a recent study (Green Car Congress: Pollution plumes in Paris air are richer in gaseous aromatic compounds than in LA; gasoline engines main source of VOCs), petrol in Paris has high levels of aromatics (e.g., toluene, xylene). Aromatics readily form SOA.

    Pre-Euro 5b diesel vehicles may very well be the primary source of the PM2.5, but I'd still like to see more data on the composition of the PM before conceding that fact.
     
  17. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    Unless Paris opened up a new coal plant downtown the inputs are pretty well known, as are the local conditions that lead up to the smoggy days.
     
  18. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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  19. telmo744

    telmo744 HSD fanatic

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  20. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    "The major culprits are from transportation sources are carbon monoxide (CO),[9][10] nitrogen oxides (NO and NOx),[11][12][13] volatile organic compounds,[10][11] sulfur dioxide,[10] and hydrocarbons.[10] These molecules react with sunlight, heat, ammonia, moisture, and other compounds to form the noxious vapors, ground level ozone, and particles that comprise smog.[10][11]"
    Smog - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Your link said much the same, but I was unable to paste the part I wanted for some reason. Anyway, the particles the links talk about are made post vehicle emission by reactions of the listed chemicals in the atmosphere. I'm not saying diesel particulates play no part in smog. Just that it is small. The diesel particulates are relatively heavy, and some them settle out of the air on buildings, snow banks, bridges, people's lungs, etc.

    NOx plays a bigger contribution than particulates of diesel exhaust in smog, and has been less regulated than particulates in the past in regards to diesels. L.A. had bad smog in the '50s. Photos of it and other American cities from that time look as bad as Pris now. The US fleet back then was still mostly gasoline. There were diesels around, but the DPF came much later than emission controls on gas cars, and the smog problems had gotten much better before its arrival.
    Ground level ozone and fine particles are released in the air due to complex photochemical reactions between volatile organic compounds (VOC), sulphur dioxide (SO2) and nitrogen oxides (NOx). These VOC, SO2 and NOx are called precursors. - See more at: Causes and Effects of Smog - Conserve Energy Future
    Ground level ozone and fine particles are released in the air due to complex photochemical reactions between volatile organic compounds (VOC), sulphur dioxide (SO2) and nitrogen oxides (NOx). These VOC, SO2 and NOx are called precursors. - See more at: Causes and Effects of Smog - Conserve Energy Future
    Ground level ozone and fine particles are released in the air due to complex photochemical reactions between volatile organic compounds (VOC), sulphur dioxide (SO2) and nitrogen oxides (NOx). These VOC, SO2 and NOx are called precursors. - See more at: Causes and Effects of Smog - Conserve Energy Future
    Ground level ozone and fine particles are released in the air due to complex photochemical reactions between volatile organic compounds (VOC), sulphur dioxide (SO2) and nitrogen oxides (NOx). These VOC, SO2 and NOx are called precursors. - See more at: Causes and Effects of Smog - Conserve Energy Future
    Ground level ozone and fine particles are released in the air due to complex photochemical reactions between volatile organic compounds (VOC), sulphur dioxide (SO2) and nitrogen oxides (NOx). These VOC, SO2 and NOx are called precursors. - See more at: Causes and Effects of Smog - Conserve Energy Future
    Ground level ozone and fine particles are released in the air due to complex photochemical reactions between volatile organic compounds (VOC), sulphur dioxide (SO2) and nitrogen oxides (NOx). These VOC, SO2 and NOx are called precursors. - See more at: Causes and Effects of Smog - Conserve Energy Future
    Ground level ozone and fine particles are released in the air due to complex photochemical reactions between volatile organic compounds (VOC), sulphur dioxide (SO2) and nitrogen oxides (NOx). These VOC, SO2 and NOx are called precursors. - See more at: Causes and Effects of Smog - Conserve Energy Future
    Ground level ozone and fine particles are released in the air due to complex photochemical reactions between volatile organic compounds (VOC), sulphur dioxide (SO2) and nitrogen oxides (NOx). These VOC, SO2 and NOx are called precursors. - See more at: Causes and Effects of Smog - Conserve Energy Future
    Ground level ozone and fine particles are released in the air due to complex photochemical reactions between volatile organic compounds (VOC), sulphur dioxide (SO2) and nitrogen oxides (NOx). These VOC, SO2 and NOx are called precursors. - See more at: Causes and Effects of Smog - Conserve Energy Future
    Ground level ozone and fine particles are released in the air due to complex photochemical reactions between volatile organic compounds (VOC), sulphur dioxide (SO2) and nitrogen oxides (NOx). These VOC, SO2 and NOx are called precursors. - See more at: Causes and Effects of Smog - Conserve Energy Future
    Ground level ozone and fine particles are released in the air due to complex photochemical reactions between volatile organic compounds (VOC), sulphur dioxide (SO2) and nitrogen oxides (NOx). These VOC, SO2 and NOx are called precursors. - See more at: Causes and Effects of Smog - Conserve Energy Future
     
  21. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    We don't know what the particulates are composed of. DI gas engines emit high levels of particulates, but they have a different make up from diesel ones for the most part. Size doesn't tell us source. Maybe the new coal plant had a filter break. Supposedly, the historical London fog was actually coal smog from its use in home heating.
     
  22. El Dobro

    El Dobro A Member

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    From a mention in the article, I would imagine curbing home heating oil pollution would be next.