Next voltec, what do you think of the new rumors

So Energi is a full performance BEV for 20 miles then - as it completed highway cycle without ICE.

 

Some of us closely listened to what was being said prior to gen-1 rollout... knowing it would come back to bite them, twice.

EREV was heavily promoted as an industry standard term, even though no one else recognized the definition... which had a strict requirement of no mechanic engine connection to the propulsion system. That was commonly referred to as "direct drive". Enthusiasts took great pride in that, fulfilled with the satisfaction of electric purity. Then after 3 years of that, they found out Volt would indeed have a connection. Oops! So, they slightly altered the definition. That's not cool, but they figured it would be acceptable. But later when Ford entered the market, its hybrids fit the same definition. Oops again! That was followed by Honda with the same situation.

Now with gen-2, some of us see the pattern already... and are well aware that marketing taking preference over goals & results is a bad sign.

 

On some of the forums- cold weather area C-Max Energi owners are reporting 9 to 14 mile EV range. That's a major hit down from 20 miles. My PIP give s me 11 miles EV in summer and around 9 EV miles winter. I don't know what's happening in the Energi that's reducing it's EV range to between 9 to 14 miles in winter? It's got a 7.5KW battery -it should do better...

 

You are the one that keeps bringing up the 'faults' of the gen1 Volt. Stating what it did wrong isn't the same as saying what the next gen is doing.

Which was its intent. You just don't agree with it.
The Prius on initial roll out got a direct subsidy equal to half the price difference between it an a standard car equivalent, presumably an Echo. In terms of size and features, a high trim Cruze is the Volt's equivalent. The Volt is cleaner and more efficient than the Cruze, and the $7500 tax credit, which a buyer may not get completely, is about half the price difference.

No you don't. You just won't get the full motor output under battery alone with a lower power battery. If that is wasting the more powerful motors depends on operation with the ICE in hybrid mode. The only necessary costs with downsizing the battery is adjusting the suspension and dressing up the added usable space. Going bigger requires that there is space for the battery to begin with, and that it won't intrude too much into usable space. People still complain about ICEs converted to hybrids without a plug losing trunk space. A bigger battery will likely require modifying the chassis.

It was a survey of California only. Shoppers there tend to favor foreign brands more than domestic. Good thing Toyota choose it as one of its 14 states to sell the PPI in.
It also said 57% of PPI owners got it for the HOV stickers versus 27% for the Volt. Too bad there wasn't a follow up question on how many plug in. Any bets on which is more likely not to be?

Step transmissions can have multiple clutches and planetary gear sets. Yet far more of them are sold than hybrid ones. Hyundai/Kia use one with their hybrid.
The mainstream doesn't really care how complicated a device is as long as it reliably works for the expected period of time. For a car, that appears to be 10years or 150000 miles.

The highway cycle tops out at a top speed of 60mph, and accelerates at the rate of your grandmother. Acceleration is actually a tenth mph slower than the city cycle. People still speed on 75mph interstates. So it depends on what ARB considers full freeway driving.

It might annoy GM, but if EREV isn't trademarked, other companies are free to use it. Via Motors does already. Others haven't. Either out of politeness or spite, their PHVs don't actually meet the SAE definition, or public perception is that their PHVs aren't despite meeting the definition.

 

There it is again, arguing semantics rather than just stating goals.

History repeating...

 

Complexity = Cost

 

Right, if you keep it in "EV now" mode. It has the performance of a 1980 Ford Pinto but that's okay for many folks. I'd be okay with it.

 

Semantics are important when to use can come from a marketing exec or a peer reviewed article.

Sell more cars is a perfectly acceptable goal. How GM would do that with the Volt was what speculation in this thread was about. Since release of the next gen Volt is still over a year away, I don't expect any concrete responses from GM on what the next Volt be yet.

GM is free to not say anything at all. When Toyota does it, they are praised for playing it close to the chest. GM has also been criticized for 'over promising and under delivering' in the past. Being tight lipped now should be seen as an improvement.

The Volt's transmission has three more components than the Prius'. These clutches are type that have been used in automatic transmissions for decades. Rebuild kits which replace the clutch pack parts, plus other things, run around $200, and might have to rebuild more than 3 clutches. There are more parts there for sure, but how much more do you think it cost GM to make than the HSD, all else being equal(work force, production levels, etc.)?

We are charged around $800 to $1000 more for an automatic transmission in a new car, but the cost difference to the manufacturer is less.

 

The difference between niche and high-volume sales.

 

More nonsense.... GM's proposed definition of EREV was published as an SAE paper around April 2008 and the parallel aspect of the Volt transmission was revealed around September 2010. GM's EREV definition says nothing whatever about "direct drive" or potential serial vs. parallel behavior during extended range mode. It only defines the behavior of the drivetrain operation due to speed or torque demand when the battery still has remaining usable plugin charge from the grid. It also fails to define any behavior regarding HVAC operation or engine lubrication or fuel maintenance modes. The Volt was obviously intended to meet their EREV definition and it does (as does the ELR). Bother yourself to look up the actual paper rather than making things up....

http://media.gm.com/content/dam/Media/microsites/product/volt/docs/paper.pdf

It's true that some Volt enthusiasts were upset about the parallel hybrid capability but that was mostly an irrational reaction and that expectation, again, had nothing whatever to do with GM's formal definition of EREV.

As far as Ford Energi and EREV, they could validly apply that to the Energi when it operates in "EV now" mode. That mode stays in place across shutdowns and startups of the car.

From zeroto60times.com:

2013 Ford C-MAX Energi (EV now) 0-60 mph 16.1 Quarter mile 20.1 (@65 mph)

1980 Ford Pinto (4spd) 0-60 mph 15.7 Quarter mile 20.5

1974 Toyota Corolla 1200 0-60 mph 16.0 Quarter mile 19.7

2001 Toyota Prius Hybrid 0-60 mph 12.9 Quarter Mile 19.0

That would seem to fit the California ARB definition of Full Performance Battery Electric Vehicle which is referenced by the GM SAE paper that defines EREV (which I quoted in a response yesterday on this thread to usb).

I don't know enough about the Honda Accord plugin hybrid to understand whether or not EREV could apply to one of its mode of operations.

 

Seriously? You think the extra cost of the three clutches are that expensive? An automatic transmission might be a $1000 option, but that includes the torque convertor. Not having clutches may reduce the list price of the Volt by $500. Maybe that's enough to meet your mainstream price, but efficiency in all modes would drop if they did it.

Toyota added parts with the reduction gear between the gen2 and gen3 Prius, and yet managed to keep prices in check. Let me rephrase that. HSD got more complex with the gen3. Cue the cries of horror.

 

Yup, just like I pointed out. Same old nonsense repeating. The thread isn't going anywhere. Unwatch.

 

Tend to happens when you keep bringing up past issues and insist on asking questions that none but GM can answer while dodging those asked of you.

 

A nit with the article, the 1.4L in the Volt isn't the engine used in the Cruze and Sonic. It was one from an older engine family.

The 1L turbo that has come out from Opel is in the same family as the Cruze 1.4L turbo. IIRC, the Volt concept called for a 3 cylinder turbo. In addition to smaller models in Europe and maybe the Spark, it would be possible the Volt was in mind during this engine's development.

The gen2 Prius ICE didn't gain much in terms of power over the Export gen1. Only 6hp and 3ft.lbs. of torque. Th traction motor was where gains were at with 32hp and 37ft.lbs. Perhaps there were some efficiency gains in the ICE, but the more powerful motor allowed a wider range in which it could contribute. That and an increase in regenerative braking ability was the reason for the gains of the gen2's overall efficiency.

While the current hybrid mode of the Volt has some better performance than the EV mode I don't think many complain about the EV's ability. I think CS performance can drop if it is accompanied by a fuel efficiency increase. We have already gotten an incremental increase in EV range with the 2013. Hitting the original 40 mile AER should easily doable.

Features are already fine. Except for some of the crash avoidance systems, I don't think the Volt is lacking in features. I haven't taken a close look at what you get with it recently, but GM might be able to cut some for an entry level trim.

If GM's plans are to widen its appeal, the Volt needs to improve rear passenger space. I believe 4+1 configuration is possible with more efficient packaging of the battery. A fifth seat would be nice, but just getting a child seat in the middle would broaden the potential market. It might need to have to stretch the length/wheelbase to give the rear passengers some more room. Perhaps a smaller ICE will allow moving the cabin forward some for that space.

The gen2 Prius increased slightly in price while getting bigger. The Volt price already dropped $5000. That might be enough of a reduction for the gen2 on launch if it became more family friendly in space.

Of course GM could just keep the basic size same, increase its EV range, and release a seperate wagon/crossover for families at this point for all we know.

 

Yep, high volume sales is much preferred over niche sales!

DBCassidy

 

Nitpicking

DBCassidy

 

I was wrong and the article right. They are both in the same engine family, that is GM Family 0 engine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
The 1L turbo is part of the GM Small Gasoline Engine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. The Cruze will be getting an engine from that family in 2015, and the Sonic in 2014. Which is what I was thinking of before.

With GM phasing out 3 older engine families for the Small Engine one, I think chances are the next Volt will use an engine from the newer family as the Cruze and Sonic are doing. The 3cylinder turbo seems to be the best bet. The low power version for the Opel Adam produces a little more power at a lower rpm than the Volt's current engine, and there is a higher power one already developed. The Adam will have these engines available this spring. So no info on how they perform on the road yet.

Opel Adam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

I only read the Ford Energi forums sporadically but the reduced EV range may be due to using electric heating. The PiP doesn't have electric heating and is forced to start the gas engine for heat but it doesn't cause any impact on the remaining battery range after the gas engine turns off.