Arguments for superiority of hybrids

mechanical bits are cheaper than electrical bits... and when there is a problem its much easier to find...

I do miss the days of my 66 mustang, or my old classic wheel horse garden tractor. while technically archaic..it was super easy to find and fix any problems...

 

What alternate world are you living on? When your '66 mustang was made, NASA spent billions of dollars on a computer to run the Apollo missions. I can buy a phone today for $1 (plus service contract) which outperforms that by a factor of a billion.

 

Corwyn,

what does NASA's spending having anything to to do with this...???? Heck for 2.2 billion I can buy one B2 bomber, or 40 B52's with 200 million leftover to arm and hire pilots...

My HP graphing calculator from the mid' 90's probably had more computing power than the 1960's space program all put together... our current prius probably has more computing power than first generation space shuttles...

my point was that mechancial bits. IE engine and transmission, and electric motors will be cheaper. but once you start adding computer bits to the equation and linking them together with multiple computers you are increasing the complexity and cost of the system.

But by increasing the cost and complexity you are able to do things not previously able to be done...

I just stated that I missed the good old days (sometimes) in a round about way.

 

Agree. Prius is wonderfully efficient, but astonishingly complex when you include the computers and software to operate everything. Thus, DIY maintenance and repairs after the warrantee period may be challenging if not daunting if not dangerous.
My 1996 Miata MX-5, in contrast, is such a charmingly simple vehicle that I have so far been able to handle all repairs and maintenance and even construct alternative, non-OEM approaches to replace failed parts. I think Marc was referring to that simple, straightforward aspect of working on a classic Mustang or similar vehicle.

 

This is not correct. The hybrids must begin and end with close to the same SOC to prevent a manufacturer from cheating this way.

 

Hrmmm....perhaps arrogant then. Superiority in the eyes of a Prius owner may not match the definition of someone who owns a pickup truck for their business. Isn't this thread about how to convince others that we're right, and they're wrong? I don't know, perhaps it's just the way the OP comes off to me.

 

Yup, in most cars you have an engine($$$), transmission($$), and various other sundry components that control and cool the powertrain($).

In a Prius you have an engine($$$), transmission($$), inverter($$), HV battery($$), and the other components to control and cool the powertrain($). Oh yeah, lots of high voltage cables and components, including an electric A/C compressor, electric over hydraulic brakes, and a whole separate cooling system for the inverter and transmission. There's a lot of added complexity there, and while it's proven to be a reliable system, there is an awful lot that can go wrong.

I like my Prius, but I won't pretend that it's not a science project. I'd sooner own this thing out of warranty than either of the diesel pickup trucks I've owned in the past; each of those were liable to cost you $10,000 if you got a tank of bad fuel!

 

don't even get me going on diesel...we went to biodiesel (b10) at work... it has cost us thousands of dollars in repairs... mainly simple stuff like clogged filters, ect... but when you have 20 transit busses, 10 trucks, and 15 pieces of diesel construction equipment.. cha ching....

 

Isn't *every* thread on every forum on the entire internet? But you are missing a vital part of that, "...and allow them a chance to do the same. " Discussions about differences of opinion are always about trying to change someone's mind. Theirs, or our own (depending, hopefully, on who's right). Everyone *always* believes that they are right (that's what believing means). If at the end there is no longer a difference of opinion, then (again hopefully) everybody will be better off. Which way it went isn't the important part. This is how humans advance. Meekly "agreeing to disagree" is a terrible outcome.

 

nothing is really wrong with a stalemate... in any debate you will have those that think are winners and those think that they are losers...and at the end of a debate, both will feel they won and the other lost..human nature no one wants to be wrong...

you an I can debate hybrid vs ice all day long and we can both back up out cases as to why one is better than the other we'd both be right......

in regards to the OP..., are hybrids superior? It all depends on the criteria for the argument...At some point the criteria can be adjusted to show that a hybrid is superior...but that same criteria can be used to show that a hybrid is not superior.

until you set up parameters for what the debate is going to be based on... Ie mileage, price, capacity, size, longevity, serviceability, value. ect... we are just pissing in the wind...

 

There is no
EPA rule requiring
hybrid cars start &
end the battery at the same
state-of-charge.
That is why the city test is so inaccurate & why Ford, Hyundai, Kia were caught with inflated MPGs. Start with a full battery & gradually drain it empty.
Besides: There is no way
to guarantee SOC will be
(for example) exactly 80% at
beginning & end of the test.

 

Actually, I don't mind being wrong because that is how we learn and improve. Also as scientist my theory would predict data result X, and if the data result was Y or Z, then it was "what the hey?", and back to the drawing board. You kind of get used to being wrong, altho it can still be embarrassing for sure.
The Priuschat discussions are invaluable for new ideas and viewpoints, including fuel efficiency strategies and so forth. But clearly your are right that we have to set the evaluation criteria before arguing for superiority. For me it was delivering an overall fuel efficiency of over 50 mpg in the 30% city, 70% rural driving pattern with two+ adults and luggage that we have, and for the first 20,000 miles we have achieved that.
But your other post about biodiesel was discouraging. I have dreamed of a "Grease Car" diesel where we could refuel with waste oil whilst on trips, but your experience strongly suggests that there are many problems in that approach. Sigh.

 

Please check your facts before posting.

From: Why Is the EPA So Bad at Estimating Hybrid Fuel Economy? – Feature – Car and Driver

 

Troy Heagy,
Please quit lying and posting false information on this blog. Please find another blog to terrorize. You have overstayed your welcome here.

 

Let him talk.

Nobody hates thin-skinned Prius smugness more than I do, but it's pretty easy to spot and correct somebody who posts things that are just patently incorrect, and we have their poor examples in print.

The last time this topic came up 'real-world' I shrugged my shoulders and said something like:
"I don't drive my car in a government lab, I drive it on the street. I get 50 miles to the gallon. That's about 500 miles on a $30 fill-up....
I've done this for 65,000 miles.
How much are YOUR fill-ups and how far do they take YOU?"

Conversations like that are usually pretty short, and they underscore a superior aspect to driving a Prius.
Generally speaking?
If you take care of dependability and frugality at an acceptable comfort and price point, then all of the arguments will generally take care of themselves.

 

The problem with him is he blatantly misleads people and speaks as if everything he says is factual. My concern is for the newbies. False info affects them negatively. I can take differing opinions but I can't take purposefully misleading people to get your jollies off. Obviously I can't stop him from speaking but, I can warn others about him and that is my way of doing it.

 

"The EPA monitors the battery" is a false statement since the EPA rarely does any tests. The carmakers do their own testing. (Therefore I doubt the accuracy if the rest of the paragraph too.) Thats why it was so easy for Ford to fake the Cmax hybrid numbers..... no oversight.

 

Also you quoted Car & Driver..... not an authoritative source. They (and car reviewers in general) have been caught making many technical errors.

The only True source is the EPA itself, and I don't see any rule on the City test requiring the hybrid battery be (for example) 80% at start and 80% at end of the run.

Ye could learn what I have learned: Only trust original sources, not secondary or tertiary ones
.

 

Irony: Somebody who is always quoting other sources insisting that they only trust original sources.

Like I said earlier:
My most recent tank.
496 miles.
$33.44 fillup.

These numbers have been fairly consistent over the last 65,000 miles.
If one wants to think that I have an unfair advantage over other vehicles because of the battery then that's OK by me.


Neeeext.

 

Like I said when I was a Navy recruiter and my prospective recruit said "I don't wanna join" and I said "Next" lol