1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

Does the Prius have a transmission?

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Main Forum' started by Jeff N, Apr 2, 2014.

  1. Troy Heagy

    Troy Heagy Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2013
    1,218
    4
    0
    Vehicle:
    2013 Prius
    Model:
    One
    Okay I reviewed the Volt graphs. I'm convinced..... it appears GM reached the same conclusion as Honda with their Accord hybrid: It is more efficient to connect the engine directly to the wheels at 44 and higher speeds.

    That's a bit disappointing. I thought it was a true EV with an extending generator, but now it appears it's just a plugin hybrid.
     
  2. Bill Norton

    Bill Norton Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2012
    1,834
    601
    0
    Location:
    MONW, Ks.
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    Five
    Troy, buddy,

    Go test drive one.
    0 to 100 MPH. No stinky gas engine usage. Pure EV. Cabin heat and cooling, Pure EV.

    Not until the HV battery is used up, 25 - 50 miles depending on climate control and driving style,
    then the engine starts and runs as a series hybrid. Kind of weird compared to a Prius.

    Then, if you are just driving down that lonesome highway, the 3rd clutch engages connecting the engine directly to the transaxle as a parallel hybrid, just like a Prius.
    Floor it and it goes back to series mode.

    It's a fast, fun, quiet, great handling car!

    Test drives are free !! What have you got to lose?
     
  3. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2004
    14,487
    2,996
    0
    Location:
    Fort Lee, NJ
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    Volt uses fuel in series -- the battery first until depletion and then Gas.

    PiP uses them in either parallel or in series, depending on the drive cycle. This approach enables the best of both worlds.

    When the 3rd clutch engages (actually clutch #2), it is NOT like a Prius. It is like Honda IMA. MGa is clutched with the ICE there is no way of splitting the power into series path like the Prius.

    Volt's inability to split power from the ICE forces it to operate in EITHER pure parallel or series hybrid mode. Prius can do both at the same time varying the ratio (eCVT).

    Even when it operates in the pure parallel mode, only 1/3 of ICE torque can make it to the wheels. Which is why, it is forced into series mode (with conversion loss) if you request more power.
     
    robertmaria likes this.
  4. Jeff N

    Jeff N The answer is 0042

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2010
    2,382
    1,304
    0
    Location:
    California, USA
    Vehicle:
    2011 Chevy Volt
    Sorry, but this is an incoherent post. If only 1/3 of the power from the ICE can make it to the wheels in the Volt's parallel mode and the Volt is unable to power split the ICE into a series path then where exactly do you propose that the remaining 2/3's of the ICE power goes?

    Both cars require the motor attached to the Sun gear to provide that eCVT controlling function. In the Prius this is the smaller motor that is primarily a generator. In the Volt this is the larger motor that is primarily the drive motor. Both cars would go nowhere on ICE power if this Sun gear motor were allowed to spin freely.

    The obvious answer is that the Volt is not at all like the Honda IMA system because it does, in fact, power split in parallel mode and it can and does vary the power flow through the series path (somewhat like the Prius) to vary the effective ratios (eCVT). Although the Prius and Volt both use a planetary gear power splitting arrangement the components are hooked up to the gears in a different arrangement which leads to different limitations and optimal paths.
     
  5. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2004
    14,487
    2,996
    0
    Location:
    Fort Lee, NJ
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    Fixed the typo. Thanks for the catch. 1/3 of ICE torque (not power).

    Check again, Volt ICE does not split power. There is a clutch (C3) between the generator (MGa) and the ICE. There is another clutch (C2) between MGa and PSD. Both C2 and C3 needs to be engaged for parallel operation with MGb. When C2 is disengaged, it is series operation.

    For the Prius, the generator and ICE are connected to sun and planet gears - enabling power split.
     
  6. Troy Heagy

    Troy Heagy Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2013
    1,218
    4
    0
    Vehicle:
    2013 Prius
    Model:
    One
    Hyundai, Kia, and Volkswagen have hybrids similar to IMA style.

    Those efficiency graphs were confusing. The Volt appears most efficient at either 40 miles/hour (EV mode) or 60 miles/hour (gasoline-burning mode). The first makes logical sense, but the second seems awfully high.

    It suggests a driver would achieve maximum MPG at 60 while the gasoline engine is running. Maybe I misunderstood?

    And yes I drove a Volt... the engine never turned on, but the dealer also refused to let me go faster than 35 (city speed limit).
     
  7. Jeff N

    Jeff N The answer is 0042

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2010
    2,382
    1,304
    0
    Location:
    California, USA
    Vehicle:
    2011 Chevy Volt
    And you think this somehow prevents MGa from generating electricity and placing load on the ICE?

    When C2 is disengaged, the Volt is in series-only operation. This does not mean that when C2 and C3 are engaged that there cannot also be a series path in addition to the parallel path.

    You're hung up on the idea that only the Sun gear can generate electricity but the series path flows in a different direction on the Volt because of how things are hooked up the planetary gears.
     
  8. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2004
    14,487
    2,996
    0
    Location:
    Fort Lee, NJ
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    You are right, I see it now. Volt can indeed split ICE power but in a limited way.

    If MGa spins too fast, MGb rpm will be limited (or even would have to spin backward). Power delivery would be limited which is why it needs pure series mode to get more power blended.
     
  9. Troy Heagy

    Troy Heagy Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2013
    1,218
    4
    0
    Vehicle:
    2013 Prius
    Model:
    One
    Is 60 miles/hour really the most efficient speed for Volt's range-extend mode?
     
  10. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2004
    14,487
    2,996
    0
    Location:
    Fort Lee, NJ
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    Should be below that. Above 60 mph, aero drag becomes majority (> 50%) of the total power loss.

    Volt's owner manual suggests staying below 60 mph to get higher range.

    PiP was designed to get optimal gas mileage (when operating continously) above 62 mph. Below that speed is for EV operation. In a sense, two different fuels were used as part of the transmission (low and high speed). It is a clever resource saving idea.
     
  11. Jeff N

    Jeff N The answer is 0042

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2010
    2,382
    1,304
    0
    Location:
    California, USA
    Vehicle:
    2011 Chevy Volt
    Best hybrid mpg is probably around 45 mph.

    Best EV efficiency is around 20 mph.
     
  12. Jeff N

    Jeff N The answer is 0042

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2010
    2,382
    1,304
    0
    Location:
    California, USA
    Vehicle:
    2011 Chevy Volt
    MGa will never spin too fast since it spins at the same rpm as the ICE which is limited to 4800 rpm.
     
  13. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2004
    14,487
    2,996
    0
    Location:
    Fort Lee, NJ
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    If 4,800 ICE rpm is the peak power, what rpm will MGb rev at 60 mph?

    I think MGb will be revving backwards, meaning it cannot be a motor but instead a generator. In such case, MGa has to be a motor to consume electricity.

    It is a balancing act where neither can reach full power, constraint by PSD. There is no point in splitting ICE power into MGa since MGb will not be able to consume it (MGb rpm is low).

    The only way both ICE and MGb can reach peak power is only when C2 is disengaged (pure series mode).
     
  14. Troy Heagy

    Troy Heagy Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2013
    1,218
    4
    0
    Vehicle:
    2013 Prius
    Model:
    One
    Thats not what the efficiency graphs in the link show (60 and 40 mph respectively). Can you explain the discrepancy?
     
  15. Jeff N

    Jeff N The answer is 0042

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2010
    2,382
    1,304
    0
    Location:
    California, USA
    Vehicle:
    2011 Chevy Volt
    Those maps and graphs show when the Volt's transmission chooses to switch between single motor and combined motor operation etc. That's different from the question of what is the most efficient speed to drive at.

    From a US national labs study of the Chevrolet Volt... I question some of the other numbers in it, but these numbers below (from page 2 of the document) look about right and are at least good for making comparisons between speeds. The most efficient speed for EV mode driving is probably around 15-20 mph which would be roughly consistent with results published by Tesla for the Roadster and Model S.

    Energy Consumption at Steady-State Speed, 0% Grade

    10 mph
    219.5 Wh/mi

    20 mph
    160.8 Wh/mi

    30 mph
    180.0 Wh/mi

    40 mph
    207.8 Wh/mi

    50 mph
    253.1 Wh/mi

    60 mph
    294.2 Wh/mi

    70 mph
    361.6 Wh/mi

    80 mph
    411.4 Wh/mi


    http://avt.inel.gov/pdf/EREV/fact2013chevroletvolt.pdf

    I haven't seen carefully gathered steady state data for hybrid mode efficiency with the gas engine at different speeds. My guess of 45 mpg is based purely on personal experience as an observant Volt driver. I haven't attempted to measure this carefully.

    It might be the case that there is a slower "most efficient speed" as well around the 20 mph point when the EV efficiency aspect of series mode is best. I should try measuring the efficiency of hybrid mode at 24 mph (which is always series mode and is the lowest settable cruise control speed) and 40 mph which is fast enough to switch to power-split.

    The key factors are probably aerodynamic resistance (slower is better) and the efficiency of power splitting with near optimal engine rpm and load vs. the conversion losses of series mode operation.
     
  16. Jeff N

    Jeff N The answer is 0042

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2010
    2,382
    1,304
    0
    Location:
    California, USA
    Vehicle:
    2011 Chevy Volt
    If you are redlining the ICE at 4800 rpm at 60 mph you are almost certainly in series mode so MGb is spinning at whatever speed is implied by the planetary gear ratios to the wheels. I haven't personally worked through those calculations and don't have time to do them now.

    I'm not sure what you mean about motor vs generator being dependent upon the direction of spin. If that were true then single motor BEVs like the Model S and the LEAF wouldn't be able to do regenerative braking.

    My understanding is that the real constraint on power splitting mode is due to the planetary gear ratios and the torque output of MGb vs. MGa and the ICE on the ring gear. In order for MGb to apply all of its output to the wheels, the ring gear has to be locked and the MGa and the ICE have be unclutched from the ring gear. I haven't worked the numbers myself but I've seen sensible sounding people say that.

    There is a high level description of this stuff at:

    Solving the Volt’s Extended Range Combined Mode Power Split

    One if these days, when I have more time, I plan to work my way through the various equations that describe the various aspects of the Prius and Volt transaxle designs.
     
  17. Troy Heagy

    Troy Heagy Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2013
    1,218
    4
    0
    Vehicle:
    2013 Prius
    Model:
    One
    The graphs say "efficiency" so I am inclined to disbelieve you when you say they don't show efficiency.

    The Leaf also shows best efficiency at 15-20 mph.
     
  18. Jeff N

    Jeff N The answer is 0042

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2010
    2,382
    1,304
    0
    Location:
    California, USA
    Vehicle:
    2011 Chevy Volt
    I agree that a couple of those graphs are confusing in isolation. I'll go back over the weekend and look at the full paper in order to place them in their full perspective.