Toyota Shows Distain: Even for their Own RAV4-EV

Your corolla customer is not going to buy a prius phv. They most certainly aren't going to buy a fuel cell vehicle which seems to be where toyota Toyota PR wants to put the alternative fuel. That dealer is going to rry and sell the corola guy a camry not even a prius liftback or prius c. And no, there is no reason to think they want a 4.4Kwh plug in. So no, I can't answer your question and neither can you. Its just a retread of old sh%t. If you are asking what can do volume, IMHO tesla blue star could outsell the prius lilftback 7 years from now if they are able to do it right. It will cost $10K more than a camry but people will pay.

You can ask who is going to buy these plug-ins, but you can't say its got to be in some stupid pigeon hole. The market surveys just don't support that. So yes please stop asking me directly how gm will make a mainstream plug-in, especially on a thread about how toyota is marketing against plug-ins. Its a silly distraction from the topic. Start your own thread.

I did though answer what customers are telling toyota to do in their next plug-in. I will also tell you no customer is telling toyota that a four seat fuel cell that performs like a prius but costs as much as a tesla is desirable.

 

That's an interesting spin on refusing to answer the "Who?" question.

I clearly stated the target audience.

Please do the same.

 

I didn't ask. The topic has been on Prius all along. There was a mention of "mainstream" and I provided examples.

We all know Toyota worked hard to keep the design cost-competitive, that the ultimate goals is to replace traditional production.

Prius PHV is helping to achieve that.

 

I respect both of you guys (john1701a and austingreen) and the opinions you present. I've been a happy Prius owner since 2006 and a Toyota/Prius "evangelist" (just ask my friends and co-workers who have been subjected to my frequent "lectures ") concerning the merits of hybrid technology in general and the Toyota HSD approach in particular.

I can't speak to the mind or mood of the average consumer and the factors that lead him/her to purchase one vehicle over another or the thoughts behind the corporate strategy that appears to be driving Toyota away from battery electric vehicles. I can speak to the reasons why I am most disappointed in Toyota's current position (as demonstrated by the Lexus commercial).

The Prius is a wonderfully clever design and the improvements that Toyota's engineers have made over the past 20 years leading to higher efficiencies and better performance have been awe inspiring. The Prius gave people like me the opportunity to see what it feels like to drive without an ICE. ICE free driving proved to be a powerful "drug" for some of us in that, once we experienced electric power, we wanted more.

Toyota led us up to the bridge that separates ICE driving from electric driving and, it seems to me, even hinted that they were going to cross the bridge with the release of the Prius PHEV. Although Toyota isn't ready to cross (at least not at this time), it appears that other manufactures (e.g., Tesla, Nissan, Ford, BMW, and Mercedes) are.

A case can be made to support the conclusion that battery technology, as it currently exists, isn't perfect, but it may be good enough to produce a workable first attempt at a functional (satisfies the driving needs of most users most of the time) battery powered electric vehicle. Has Toyota's desire to produce a perfect automotive battery become the enemy of the good (current generation) solutions that are available now? I don't know and, with respect to all opinions expressed, none of us REALLY knows what is motivating Toyota's corporate decision making process (although it is fun and thought provoking to speculate).

Although I can't know what motivates Toyota, I do know I'm ready to cross the bridge and abandon the ICE. When I replace my current Prius this year I will be looking for something with a plug and since Toyota does not sell a BEV (or even market the Prius PHEV) in my state I will be looking at BEVs from companies that were willing (as Toyota was with the Prius almost 20 years ago) to offer consumers a choice we didn't even know we wanted, until we had the opportunity to try it.

 

Well I am not you or toyota, or any car company, but we do know who is buying now, and can predict who will likely buy phevs. I reject the assumption that they need to appeal to corola drivers. It is legitimate to ask who will buy plug-ins

Read the surveys. In many ways the initial adopters of plug-ins will skew in similar ways to the initial adopters of the gen II prius.

This group is interested in using less oil and/or the technology behind the cars.
Gen II prius adopters were richer and more educated than the general population. They were mostly older male drivers, and commute distance was greater than average.

For plug-ins the survey's add people are interested in the better driving experience and the HOV stickers. The plug-in group owns or rents homes (94%), is even richer than the hybrid group, but the age and sex of buyers is closer to average car buyer than hybrids adopters. Commute distances are lower than average. Most are multiple car households, but that doesn't mean family members regularly switch cars, but one is available for long trips.

The rumors from toyota are they are going to upgrade the suspension and increase the pack size in the next generation, but these are just rumors. The surveys say they should do both of these, and update the dash too.

 

Careful on how one interprets survey answers. We have a PiP and like the car and happy we bought it. If someone asked me if I am disappointed with the EV range, I'd have to say yes, but I knew that going in. Everyone should be disappointed with the EV range of the PiP. Now ask them if they'd pay $3000 more to double the PiP range. Maybe the answer would be no. It would be more fun to get more EV miles, but the amount of gas I'd save would be a drop in the bucket. 10,000 miles per year with an overall mpg of 100 means 100 gallons of gas. 200 mpg would mean 50 gallons per year - a 50 gallon per year savings. A 25 mile per gallon vehicle would use 400 gallons. So today's PiP saves 300 gallons a year over that vehicle and a 200 mpg PiP would save an additional 50 gallons over the 300 saved.

Perhaps Toyota is claiming - close enough - mission accomplished, now lets move on and see if we can do something else that nobody else has done so far. ?

 

Since that's what they did with the regular Prius, why should the plug-in model be any different.

The efficiency benefit drops off significantly once you exceed 75 MPG. Switching to optimization of cost is a normal next step.

It's not like Prius will be abandoned, but diversification is very important. And because refinements of existing offerings don't generate much attention, there will be an obvious bias toward the new.

 

The October 2013 price cut must mean they aren't selling as many as they'd like to.
I'm really tempted to trade my 2010 Prius in for the 2014 PiP, but I know I'd have buyer's regret shortly thereafter.

"The $29,990 msrp of the 2014 Toyota Prius Plug-in Hybrid brings it in line with the most inexpensive plug-ins. The Smart Fortwo electric, Chevy Spark EV, Nissan Leaf and Mitsubishi i are all under $30,000, not including federal tax credits and state rebates. The Prius Plug-in qualifies for a tax credit up to $2,500. The Prius plug-in is the only plug-in hybrid to be priced under $30,000.
The 2014 Prius Plug-in Hybrid will be available in November in the following states: California, Oregon, Washington, Arizona, Maine, Massachusetts, Vermont, New Hampshire, Rhode Island, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Maryland, Virginia and Hawaii."

 

Or they just felt the pressure to do so because the prices had been cut on the Leaf and Volt.

 

If you are winning in the market, you let the other bastard give up profits while you collect yours. If you are even or behind, you have to follow suit to keep market share. Obviously, they are worried about market share. Another $2500 would have doubled the EV range. Should have engineered the battery compartment to allow for a no-brainer upgrade for the 2014 model year.

 

But Toyota certainly did not feel the pressure created by the Leaf and Volt being sold in most states of the USA.

 

Certainly true, its important to ask the question correctly.

Now since the Prius phv is not sold in texas I don't know how they would discount here, but since the c-max energi costs less than the prius phv with MSRP, taxes and tax credits, its hard to imagine that extra battery would jump the price. Lets say they could only get 8 kwh (because of space constraints) you should be able to double the range in the next gen. That extra battery if it costs $600/kwh (most think its lower) would cost 3.6x600 or $2160, say you want to get more profit from the extra battery so the mark up including profit shipping dealer market is $600 bringing it $2760, now the government kicks in an extra $1600 tax credit, so cost to the customer is really $1200 with a higher profit margin going to toyota than the car with half the aer range.

So if you could get a version with twice the range and 40% harder acceleration without the ice turning on, would you spend $1200? That is how I would phrase the question if I wanted honest answers from customers (but I would select the real estimated range improvements of the biggest battery I thought would fit).

I don't think you are looking at 25 mpg vehicles when comparing to a prius phv. You may be looking at 31 mpg vehicles, and the c-max, volt, etc. So versus say a focus you get a more direct feel in acceleration because of the electric driving. How much is that worth? If you save 50 gallons a year for 8 years of owning that bigger battery, that's 400 gallons. Would you pay $3/gallon today, for each of the gallons saved in the next 8 years today? I wouldn't phrase it that way because you would get too many hand wavers.

could be, but that doesn't explain that Lexus advertising at all. That seems like an attempt to confuse potential customers out buying plug-ins, including toyota's own.

 

But they weren't winning the market. Toyota was discounting in areas as heavily as the others. I believe there is a thread around here on how much people paid for a PPI, and some got it cheaper than an equivalent Prius.

The price for batteries is dropping, and they all likely reduced the 'profit' they made from the credit to expand.

The limited market argument allowed them to wave off lower sales compared to the Leaf and Volt, but too large of a gap couldn't be tolerated.

 

It will be interesting to see how many and what kinds of EVs are for sale in 5 yrs.
If I get one, I will try to lease as to not be stuck with old technology.

 

Ironically, that is the same reason why automakers are choosing to hold back.

 

To hold back is to play it safe, certainly. However, it is also like the Lottery - you can't win if you don't play. The winner will be the company who takes today's technology and applies it in a clever optimal manner to produce something other companies can not. Is Tesla that company? Nissan? At least these guys have the guts to get in the game.

 

Since Toyota is continuing to invest in lithium battery tech, they are still playing.

 

Toyota might abandon electric vehicles | Automotor Blog

So it's not just a "What's the wave of the future?" thing; it's a socio-political thing.