Toyota Auris hybrid beat by diesel Auris

Yeah, Navistar tried to go it with just EGR, but they've thrown in the towel, and are going with SCR. Caterpillar doesn't use SCR with their own engines. Which have easier emission targets being for off-road use. Their on-road truck engines are Navistars with Cummings SCR.

The CX-5 is putting diesel into the oil pan down under, and it is technically an issue with emission equipment. Fuel for active regens of the DPF are injected into the cylinder during the exhaust stroke. Some of this fuel collects on the cylinder walls, and work its way into the oil sump. With vehicles taking mostly short trips, even more fuel gets left behind because the engine isn't warm enough to vaporize it all. Then such vehicles will require more active regens to begin with. So more fuel in the oil. Biodiesel is also more likely to get into the oil with such a system.

It isn't a problem with the Mazda6. Presumably it injects the fuel for regen directly into the DPF like the Cruze does.

Mazda announces fix for CX-5 oil problem - motoring.com.au


The diesel 6 was supposed to come out the end of 2013. It got delayed for certification reasons. Mazda announced another delay at the Chicago Auto Show recently. They got the emissions to pass, but they aren't happy with the performance reduction that it required. Their likely customers won't be either.
Mazda: Didn’t Want to Damage Clean-Diesel Reputation | North America content from WardsAuto

Never claimed they were new, but gasoline engines don't generate the amount of NOx a diesel. Honda's engines go into lean burn at select times. For diesels, lean burn is their default state. the only time they aren't there is during WOT.

 

Sorry, Jetta similar sized to Model S?

There is another diesel hybrid out there MB E300 Bluetec Hybrid here is some real world data:
Übersicht: Mercedes-Benz - E-Klasse - Spritmonitor.de
6,5 l/100 km = 36 MPG

Compare that to Lexus ES 300h:
Lexus ES300h MPG Reports | Fuelly
36~38 MPG

May someone explain to me how is it possible that on paper a diesel fuel contains 12% more energy per volume and diesel engine is 10% more efficent (38% vs 42%) than atkinson petrol, but out in the wild the difference of 23% in MPG is just not there, even more it's reversed?

And please stop with NEDC numbers, that are completely unrealistic and even not good for a comparison.

 

Well, we don't have any idea on the reported cars' routes or the driving style. It could be a total mismatch between the models, or for the respective hybrid system. NEDC is unrealistic, but the MB doesn't have EPA numbers for us to get idea how far off the real world is from controlled testing.

There is also the question of who is paying for fuel. Because of its price, and incentives for businesses, the MBs may be company cars, and the drivers not paying the fuel bill.

Then there is the differences between the hybrid systems. The MB has one 27hp motor and a 0.8kWh battery. Finding ratings for the individual MGs in the Camry/Avalon/ES system escapes me. The system hp is 200, and following document has the ICE hp at 155 or 158. Which puts the contribution from the motors at 40+hp. The battery has twice the capacitiy at 1.6kWh. Being NiMH, the usable portion may be around the same as the MB's.

The hybrid systems are the main reason for the difference. The greater power out of Toyota's motors means the system has a better chance of keeping the ICE at an efficient point, including off. The smaller motor in the Bluetec hybrid means the diesel has to do more work. Which likely falls outside of the efficiency zone for it. It doesn't help that MB also went for better performance.

This is an unlike comparison for comparing the fuel efficiency of an atkinson and diesel engine. The thermal efficiencies aren't taking into account the hybrid components. It's just the ICE alone. But people won't buy an atkinson without the hybrid parts for us to have a real world comparison to a diesel.

 

Troy, you should really take some more time to read my post.
1. I didn't mention Auris anywhere
2. I was comparing MB E class with Lexus ES, both cars similar size, MB has the power advantage, but not so serious
3. I always use either US MPG or l/100 km, I never mixed up UK and US gallons
4. I'm not afraid of diesel, I just think that it's not worth of having even heavier more expensive car and more complex ICE, that can have injector, high pressure pump, turbine, DPF or some other problems. I know what people around me are fixing on less than 10 year old diesels, I'm from Europe.

Maybe the MB hybrid system is not efficient enough, but the fact is that non-hybrid diesel version consumes 1 l/100 km more than hybrid version, there you have it a 13-15% gain. Real world data from 20 users is not credible, but it shows a trend and when we have 200 users input I doubt we will see more than 5% difference from current data.

 

That remove 2 vehicles from the top-12 list. How about the other 10?

If you lend me your access credentials, or link a free copy of the documents in question, I will dig deeper.

What could be more comparable to a Jetta TDI than one of its own Jetta siblings? The gasoline Jetta Hybrid handily beats both, with a green score of 53.

But there is more, even after deleting the 2-seaters:
Green Score 53: Insight
Green Score 54: Civic CNG, Mitsubishi Mirage
Green Score 55: Prius Plug-in, Lexus CT200h, Civic Hybrid, regular Prius, Nissan Leaf
Green Score 57: Prius C.

Still, an EV is on that top list, but NO diesels of any kind. That TDI falls way short, even compared to its gasoline hybrid twin (or triplet).

You would have been more accurate to note that a particular diesel beats a particular EV, just like one particular gasser, the Escalade, beats one particular diesel, a Kenworth tractor. This is called 'cherry picking'.

(1) You haven't provided the cold, unemotional, logical thinking to reasonably extrapolate diesel-hybrid mpg from existing gas-hybrid performance. Extrapolating from the performance difference between Otto-cycle gasoline and diesel engines in otherwise matching vehicles glosses over other important factors in hybrid operation.

(2) Unlike you, many of us do care about CO2 emission. Because of diesel's higher carbon content, that diesel-whatever rig needs to achieve 86 mpg-diesel just to break even with that 75 mpg gasser.

 

.. and not only CO2 but also energy used from crude. A simpler way would be to compare diesel and petrol by fuel mass not volume.

If you go even further and use LPG instead of petrol then you will face even more loss in MPG, but energy consumed from crude oil would be around the same and CO2 would be around 10% lower because of higher hydrogen content in LPG.

 

Word on the UK Toyota forum is that the Yaris HSD and the Auris HSD are not as good as the Prius for economy, the Yaris HSD being reported to be poor by a number of owners.

Wonder what's going on? Diesel isn't that far behind hybrid for economy (manual transmissions only). Honda have pulled most of the hybrids from their range as they just can't compete with their own diesels - which are MORE economical.

I'm not a diesel fan, but think the European hybrids from Toyota aren't cutting the mustard.

 

Is that why the title of this thread is 'Hybrid beat by diesel'?

Remember that even the Jetta TDI is beat by its own hybrid.

 

"You would have been more accurate to note that a particular diesel beats a particular EV, just like one particular gasser, the Escalade, beats one particular diesel, a Kenworth tractor. This is called 'cherry picking'."

LOL

 

Actually, CR TDIs have throttles and they have throttle plates in the intake manifold.

 

Do ever get off the highway ? Does your highway ever have stop & go traffic ?

In any case, your title should have been "Auris Diesel beats Auris hybrid in Highway MPG." Then people who only want to consider highway MPG are informed. As written, you are just trolling. As usual.

 

Links please. A huge number of devils can be hiding in the (currently hidden) details.

 

Now you are talking out of both sides of your mouth in the same post.

If you want to compare vehicles with matching interior volume, then the Leaf EV must be compared to the barely smaller Prius Hatchback, not to the much smaller 'c'. The Leaf and Prius Hatchback tie, both have green scores of 55. See The Best Vehicles by Class: 2014 -- Midsize Cars. The 'c' is placed on the Compact Cars page.

If you want to compare the Leaf (55) against the 'c' (56), then we also are allowed to compare the VW Jetta SportWagon TDI (45 for automatic, 46 for manual) against the Honda Fit EV (56) too, not just the Tesla, as is done on this page -- The Best Vehicles by Class: 2014 -- Small Wagons. One of those EVs crushes the diesel.

I don't see EV categorically losing out to diesel either way. Which way does TH want to do it? Only a troll gets to have it both ways in the same post.