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not much saving charging at paid station?

Discussion in 'Gen 1 Prius Plug-in 2012-2015' started by hanshinji, May 19, 2014.

  1. srl99

    srl99 Member

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    My experience 1 1/2 hours to charge the PiP on a Chargepoint. This one costs 50c/hour, so 25c/kWH which is expensive vs overnight rate of 10c at home. That 75c gets me 12 miles, so FUEL cost of 6.25c/mi vs. gas at 4.00/gal for 55 miles (? with 0 miles of EV range ?) fuel cost of 7.27c/mi. I could disconnect from the charge point before the power tapers down from 2.3kWH to .6 kWH (at 1:15?), which would save a bit per kWH. However, I'm using the kWH during the high traffic/low speed parts of the trip where the gas engine would be least efficient. Then there's no engine maintenance if the gas engine isn't running (although Toyota didn't include a run-time sensitive maintenance minder on the 2014).
     
  2. fortytwok

    fortytwok Active Member

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    "My experience 1 1/2 hours to charge the PiP on a Chargepoint. This one costs 50c/hour, so 25c/kWH which is expensive vs overnight rate of 10c at home. That 75c gets me 12 miles, so FUEL cost of 6.25c/mi vs. gas at 4.00/gal for 55 miles (? with 0 miles of EV range ?) fuel cost of 7.27c/mi. I could disconnect from the charge point before the power tapers down from 2.3kWH to .6 kWH (at 1:15?), which would save a bit per kWH. However, I'm using the kWH during the high traffic/low speed parts of the trip where the gas engine would be least efficient. Then there's no engine maintenance if the gas engine isn't running (although Toyota didn't include a run-time sensitive maintenance minder on the 2014). "

    So your EV est is 12.o after that 90 min charge - what is it after the 75min when "the power tapers down" ?
    That'll give you your answer.
    My guess is you're adding zip for that extra 15min and that will help your cost vs gas
    more like $2.75 then
     
  3. F8L

    F8L Protecting Habitat & AG Lands

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    I disagree. Free EV charging promotes leeching and an abuse of the infrastructure.

    With fast charging cars like the Leaf around, a free charging station becomes very attractive as a way to offset the cost of ownership on someone else's dime. It also encourages people to leave their car parked in these spots all day long because there is no incentive to move. I observe people parking their plug-ins in one spot all day long (employees and park & ride folks). This causes congestion at the stations around here. You can't rely on having a charger open for this reason. So a BEV may be out of luck if it is in dire need of a charge. That is the entire purpose behind these stations isn't it? Not so a PHEV can hop from station to station. Some of the stations in my area (Target) are free for the first 2hrs then they charge a fee after that. It's set up as an automatic rollover feature too so if you stay plugged in for more than 2hrs it will automatically start charging your account (Chargepoint). Maybe this is the best solution for businesses?

    If we are going to see widespread adoption of BEVs we are going to need people to buy the correct size battery for their driving needs and not have to rely on charging stations outside the home except in rare circumstances. As more people buy PHEVs and BEVs, charging stations will become less available. Then you're going to see some serious charger-rage. Requiring a payment for use of the stations will help reduce this problem as will strict enforcement of ICEing.
     
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  4. Kurt Weiske

    Kurt Weiske Active Member

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    $.27/hour at my work, but there's another perk - getting to park in the front row! :)
     
  5. fortytwok

    fortytwok Active Member

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    I like your idea of a fee after 2 hrs - the rest no so much.
    I charge for free at a local supermarket and restaurant - they are providing the charging not the gvt or our tax $ and I return the favor and shop or occasionally eat/drink.

    I'll add that our governor has recently approved big funds for more charging stations - and that's also ok with me!
     
  6. GregP507

    GregP507 Senior Member

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    Free public charging stations are fine when it's only a few users, but it starts to become an economic problem when too many people are using them. An average 90-minute charge for a PIP costs 40 cents, but that starts to become a significant expense when large numbers of people are using them. Every act of charity has it's limits, therefore it's inevitable that they will begin to start "charging for charging" (no pun intended).

    The problem is that it only pays to use electricity at cost, not after a markup is applied. If it costs twice as much for electricity at a for-profit charging station, it's a better idea just to burn gasoline instead. Even at a reasonable markup, the financial returns on a charging station of perhaps 50 cents an hour are hardly worthwhile as a business plan. So, for the foreseeable future, supplying electric power for public use will have to remain a charity endeavor, benefiting only those who are fortunate enough to have access to it.
     
  7. CharlesH

    CharlesH CA HOV Decal #5 on former PiP

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    Around here (San Francisco Bay Area), more and more municipalities are considering changing their public charging stations to fee-based. For stations in private parking lots owned by businesses for the benefit of their customers, it becomes a business question as to whether the charging stations will earn their keep by attracting paying customers. The "free for some period of time, then charge a fee" idea seems to me a good idea to keep people from parking all day at the charging station. For the stations in private lots, the free interval would be based on what the business expects would be a reasonable time for the customer to be shopping with them.
     
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  8. srl99

    srl99 Member

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    That's not much of a perk. Their cost is probably 15c/kWH.
     
  9. El Dobro

    El Dobro A Member

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    I'm in NJ, so there aren't any charging stations around, but I do get to charge up at work for free, with permission. At home, it costs me around $.50 to charge and I offset that with power strips all around the house.
     
  10. Kurt Weiske

    Kurt Weiske Active Member

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    If you saw our parking lot and how full it gets, you'd appreciate the intangible benefit of using the front-row spaces to charge at work. :)
     
  11. fortytwok

    fortytwok Active Member

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    so do you need to go out after an hour or so and move your car ?
    or incur several $ of charges
     
  12. Kurt Weiske

    Kurt Weiske Active Member

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    Nope, they only charge for charge time. For the time being. That may change. :(
     
  13. Andyprius1

    Andyprius1 Senior Member

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    :rolleyes:I thought BEVs and Hybrids initial concept was to clean up the air. Whatever happened? Clean air should be the number ONE priority. Anything that is needed to incentivize this aim should be done. The rest of the World will eventually follow us, it always has. US means the western advanced nations. Not just America.
     
  14. srl99

    srl99 Member

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    You asked. Chargepoint says the power starts at 2.3 kW then at 1:16 reduces to .9 kW at 1:21 reduces to .65 kW and completes at 1:32. Your wattage will vary - particularly because your voltage will be different.

    At under 1c/min I'm not sure it's worth it to jump over there and disconnect at 1:15, except for being a good citizen and disconnecting when charged. The 15 min's at less than half power, represent maybe 10c a day of extra charging cost.
     
    #34 srl99, Jun 13, 2014
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2014
  15. hanshinji

    hanshinji New Member

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    at my workplace, people with BEV and PHEV seem to have a good etiquette. we look at the charge status (on mobile app) and move the car when fully charged, so others can charge. yeah it's a hassle, but it's something that i hope never goes away.

    on the other note, i noticed that chargepoint charged me $1.89 when i had my PIP connected to the charging cable. i thought it was not supposed to charge me when it's fully charged? it's $0.50/hr so i'd have expected to pay $1. am i wrong about chargepoint?
     
  16. srl99

    srl99 Member

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    I've seen two basic Chargepoint billing schemes, by the kWH and by time. The latter has at least two options - time physically connected and time charging. The time charging scheme will allow you to 'stop Charge' from the Chargepoint app, and the billing stops.

    It seems like Chargepoint has a number of options for their billing - for instance 'first N hours are free', or excessive cost after N hours.

    What I've yet to see is "max charging time is M hours, so we stop the charge after M hours". This would be useful in a municipal lot where Five-Oh is patrolling and can issue a ticket to the offending vehicle.
     
  17. F8L

    F8L Protecting Habitat & AG Lands

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    The Mobile Now metered systems, usually found on Clipper Creek stations, use a timed use billing system. You enter the number of hours you would like to charge and that is what you are billed for. Personally I dislike this system because if you accidentally choose 10hrs of charging and then unplug to leave after 1hr you are still billed 10hrs. I've tried working with Mobile Now to help them change their billing system but so far no luck.
     
  18. GregP507

    GregP507 Senior Member

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    It seems to me the whole purpose of a public charging station is to serve the public's best interest by reducing the amount of pollution and energy-waste caused by conventional vehicles. To design a business model around selling electricity to electric vehicles, and making a profit seems like a futile one. In order to make a reasonable profit, the cost of electricity must be marked-up considerably. Once the cost exceeds that of gasoline, it makes no sense to buy electricity, regardless of what convenience it provides.
     
  19. srl99

    srl99 Member

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    Have you installed many free public charging stations?

    Last night I saw someone drop off their Volt at a free for 1 hour, $5/hour after that, supermarket EVSE, and walk out of the parking lot - not even to one of the 30 adjacent businesses at that shopping center. I wonder how many hours they paid for (a newer Volt takes ?3 hours? to charge). But I've seen plenty of people sit in the car for an hour. It's not the cost of the electricity (which is high here), it's the cost of the infrastructure, maintenance, etc. You can be SURE even if they don't patronize your store they will raise hell when the EVSE is down.
     
  20. mmmodem

    mmmodem Senior Taste Tester

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    Usually, the first thing I do when I plug in at the local Target (free first 2 hours and $2 afterwards) is walk out of the parking lot and into the Costco or Lowes across the street. Then I come back and see how much time I have for Target before I have to move the car. Logistically, it's easier this way to maximize charge time unless I buy ice cream at Costco.

    C6916 ?
     
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