Toyota Shows Distain: Even for their Own RAV4-EV

Yeah, I'd say he shot himself in the foot on that one. That was a huge mistake.

No surprise here. I haven't seen it since we don't work together anymore. I think it possibly did over simplify things but then again the average Joe might not think so. It seems the whole documentary was focusing on there being some sort of a conspiracy to get rid of EV1.

Some time ago, when I was a kid, probably around the early to mid 90's there was something I was watching on TV about solar powered cars and there was a prototype that was covered in solar panels and they were driving it around the desert. I thought that's awesome, maybe one day I'll be able to see solar power cars on the road. But the practicality of that didn't hit me at the time.

I don't think FC might work for them (automotive manufacturers) in theory but reality is a whole other animal and I don't see it taking off.

 

I believe you're referring to the solar-powered vehicle, "Sunrayer," that GM participated in The Great Solar Challenge race across the Australian desert in late 1987.

 

That might very well be it. It sure does look like it on the back. I thought the front had solar panels too but I could be wrong. I also thought this was sometime in the 1990's, maybe it was a repeat, after a few years because I doubt I'd care to have watched that when I was 2.

 

I can't find the exact number now. On one of the rav4ev forum, someone asked the parts department if they have pricing for the traction battery, he got quoted $37k.

 

The "Impact" was the vehicle GM produced after the "Sunraycer" but it was always battery powered (lead-acid), never solar powered. The "Impact" was the predecessor of the EV1 and EV2 vehicles.

 

Last years winner had them in the front and back
Delft University Triumphs In 2013 World Solar Challenge! | CleanTechnica



The problem is safety regulations make cars that are highway legal too heavy to be solar powered directly. The best we can do, and really it makes better economic sense is to build stationary solar (which is much less expensive per kwh) and use it to power plug-in cars ;-) Plug-ins allow us to use wind and geothermal too, plus fossil in a pinch ;-) The world just passed 500,000 plug-ins, 45% in the US.

Fuel cells can also get hydrogen generated solar or wind, but they take 3x or 4x more renewable electricity. Better source cost wise in the US is natural gas, and we can put renewables back on the grid to displace the natural gas used for the vehicle. The problem today is fuel cell cars are much more expensive than plug-ins today per unit of renewable energy, and fueling convience is awful compared to a phev or a 200+ mile quick charging bev. To go on a cross country trip you need a hydrogen truck to follow you ;-) Who knows tech breakthroughs may change this, but at least for the next decade there is a lot more work to do on fcv to get them up to the level of today's plug-ins.

 

Hmm. It must have been the Sunraycer then. Maybe I just watched a re-run of it. I do remember seeing it thinking "Well this is cool." but then gas in those days was less than $1 a gallon.

I don't see FCV taking off, especially not around me. I see the plug-ins doing better overall when it comes to an infrastructure to support it, charging stations vs hydrogen re-fueling stations. I think what most people have a hard time accepting with plug-ins is the limited range. Even though most people would be fine with the range I think they just don't want to find themselves stranded because they forgot to plug-in over night. If they could provide a backup engine that would get you a couple of miles that'd probably help a lot but then there'd be the added weight.

 

Definitely agree fcv aren't going to take off around me. There is no public refueling infrastructure only a university research hydrogen station. That couldn't handle many cars, and I have not met anyone that wants my state or the federal government taxing us more to build hydrogen stations. Japan and california are different, but these are tiny numbers of vehicles. Toyota says at most 2500 per year in california for 2 years starting over a year from now That is at most 4 days of US camry sales, will be as many as the next 3 years of toyota fcv sales, and toyota is the most optimistic of the 3 companies selling cars.

I agree we are in the initial adopter phase of plug-ins, most don't want them even if they dropped in price a great deal. Phevs do outsell bevs, and there should be no range anxiety with a phev. The enemies of plug-ins like to talk about all the weight of a plug-in, and indeed the tesla S weighs more than similar gasoline cars, but its actually less expensive to buy and fuel than slower sports sedans with a better driving experience than both.

If you really want low weight with a back up ice, the bmw i3 + rex weighs about as much as a prius liftback. After tax credits though it does cost about $10K more than a prius liftback II. Complying with the california bevx regulations to get hov stickers though has crippled the gas tank. They delayed the car to make the gas tank smaller so that it went farther on batteries than gas.

Better plug-ins and lower prices will happen. Battery prices should be about half or less of what they are today in 10 years.

 

I don't think we have any hydrogen stations in my state at all. I wouldn't want to pay tax dollars to fund hydrogen stations across my state when the state of our roads is so terrible and our $25 annual road tax has yet to show any improvements in our roads. I don't see any reason why we should have such crumby roads. Sure, we might get some freezing temperatures that cause snow/ice which damage the roads but up north gets that a lot more and their roads aren't filled with potholes and shoddy patch jobs.

I've seen plenty a BMW over the past 10 years since a family member works at the local plant and I wouldn't want one. The 3 series (which is what they mostly get on the employee lease) is smaller than my Prius and you have to get BMW parts, there aren't any after market ones, so the maintenance cost is higher. They really don't impress me.

 

Fuel cells or Fool cells, but either way, they are simply TOO expensive and troublesome to ever meet common transportation needs. NASA and USN use FC but they have (almost) unlimited budget$, something the average car driver doe$n't have!

 

You have a public hydrogen station in Columbia. I live in Austin, and the fc plug-in bus we are testing, was first tested in south carolina, then modified.

Absolutely agree, I think the bus test didn't cost south carolina, or texas very much, and those stations are fine, but it would cost hundreds of millions in public dollars to cover south carolina, and billions to cover texas. We have more important needs for public dollars than fcv.

I can definitely understand your choice of toyota over bmw, but we should look at the i3 as one of the possibilities of where phev tech can go. That type of platform made by the manufacturer of your choic, is likely much closer to a public commuter vehicle that uses very little oil, then a fcv. The i3 gets 117 mpge on electricity (124mpge without the rage extending ice), while the toyota 4 seater fcv likely gets 65 mpge or less (they haven't said yet). That makes it a tough sell if hydrogen costs $6/gge, and electricity costs $4/gge.

 

What if all cars were FC...with all that water vapor wouldn't we be polluting a different way and causing larger hurricanes and thunder activity? Overall that water vapor will be adding energy to the atmosphere and may cause adverse effects.

The most greenest probably is solar powered. We just need better battery tech. We're not really 'taking away' energy from anywhere except to where the solar panels sit.

 

SOLAR energy = USE it or LOSE it...of course, at NIGHT and on cloudy days, you're LOSING it (wink,wink).

 

Well California, and just about any state in the southwest is kind of caught in a bind. They really don't have a choice but to reformulate NG into Hydrogen. Electrolysis requires water as well as abundant energy, both of which seems to be a dwindling resource mainly because of growth. In the Northeast, NIMBY holds a VERY strong presence with many communities fighting not only fracking but any kind of storage or pipelining of any kind of petroleum products, not just NG. But wind and solar is getting quite large, as well as hydro power and the old reliable nukes. Oh and we have water, a lot of it.

 

Ugh, I can't figure out multi quote from mobile.

El Doboro - the Honda in the beginning is the one I remember!

Austingreen - Columbia is an hour and a half from me. I wonder if it's at USC. I'm surprised it isn't at Clemson.

I know the i3 isn't manufactured here, they make the x3's here. It'd be pretty cool to tour the plant where the i3 is made. One of the biggest positives for EV is that the charging stations could be solar powered which would reduce the costs some.

Inferno - The additional water vapor would make for one nasty climate. Not only would there be more storms and hurricanes but all that humidity would be nasty too. The increased mold and fauna could become a problem.


iPhone ?

 

Ultimately battery tech is needed for Solar. We need a battery that doesn't lose capacity over time, recharges quick, etc, etc...

Tesla is doing right with their EVs and mass-producing batteries, should only improve from there.

Toyota is doing right pushing innovation, but I can't see how water vapor could be any better en masse vs CO. Yes, it's a natural thing to occur, but we will be unnaturally producing vapor and basically turning places into rainforests

 

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yep its USC with mainly federal dollars.
Austin is UT and capmetro. They share the data with the researchers at USC and the federal sponsors NREL and DOE FTA.

Protera located in Greenville, SC is the manufacturer of the plug in + fuel cell bus. There probably is some association with University of South Carolina and the company.
Proterra, an Electric Bus Maker, Aims to Follow the Tesla Model - Businessweek
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The bmw by you is pretty nice. I haven't been there in years. They do use fuel cell fork lifts, which make a lot more sense than fuel cell cars. The i3 is constructed mainly using hydro and wind power. I haven't been in the bmw plant Leipzig, but it would be cool to see them made.

 

Water vapor is a non issue. The air can only hold so much water. It will condense and fall in a matter of hours.
Also remember, ICE vehicles already produce water, along with lots of other nasty stuff.

 

There probably is. I remember hearing the name Protera in the news when they moved to the area maybe and brought lots of jobs. Not the kinds of jobs I'm looking for (software engineer/developer) so I didn't pay much attention to it.

I'll have to tour the facility one day. I know when they were manufacturing the z4 there you could actually test drive the one you purchased on their test track. I'm interested in seeing the robotic aspect of their process.


iPhone ?