No Ethanol Gas

There are still some overall advantages to using renewable fuels, especially those derived from bio waste.

It was that "costly repairs" claim which needed clarification. We haven't seen that apply to modern vehicles designed with the intent to use E10 as a routine fuel... basically anything within the last decade.

We also have extensive experience with E85 usage for flex-vehicles here. That's been an non-issue as well.

 

How many vehicles that run e85 do you know that have no issues whatsoever with 300,000 miles? Ive been working in an autoparts store for 3+ years while going to college, i sell more fuel pumps for e85 vehicles than non e85 vehicles and many people ive dealt with are only getting 50k to 100k miles on a fuel pump. I have an 85 celica and i changed its fuel pump at 226k miles and it wad the oem pump that i pulled out of the tank. Simple fact is here in texas we e10 wasnt widely available 8 years ago and now it is. We had an 88 chevy pickup as well and we changed its fuel pump for the first time at 88k and since then it has failed 2 more times and the truck hasnt broke 100k miles. simple fact is i deal with this on a regular basis and it is a problem for many people as well.

BTW the benefits are negligable compared to the downfalls of ethanol based fuels. While it is true that vehicles are currently being designed to run ethanol fuels by using different materials in gas tanks, different polymers in fuel lines, and less steels and materials that are more susceptible to corrosion due to contact with water and ethanol. But, all this is more money spent that could be spent on more important things like making more fuel efficient cars.

Lastly, why are, many automakers voiding warrenties due to the use of e15 fuels?
Warranties void on cars burning E15, say automakers

 

Like I said, modern vehicles.

As for the E15 warranty, why would any automaker accept extra liability after the fact? That's terrible economics.

 

To bring some 'Prius content', I've tested these in both the 2003 and 2010:

• E0 works
• E10 works
• E50 works - no codes but hits MPG
• E85 works - but throws a code that can be ignored, lights check engine light, and hits MPG

I understand that any engine or vehicle not designed for ethanol fuels is at risk. We have some vivid photos of home-built, epoxy-fiberglass tanks that 'dissolved' using an ethanol fuel. But this is just part of mechanical engineering, materials engineering and testing.

Personally, if a car fails from E10, GOOD!! Especially if it has a carb because it needs to become scrap to build an efficient car. For example, the pickup truck I was following earlier this afternoon whose exhaust stank of pre-catalytic converter nonsense. I have no sympathy for those old clunkers and the rarer they become, the better.

Bob Wilson

 

I have some questions about the purported ethanol-free stations. Just where do they get their gas from?

Most municipalities have one gas terminal that receives and blends gas for ALL brands. The only difference with brands is the proprietary additives they blend in, when the tanker picks up the fuel for the said branded station.

Most of the ethanol-free station listed are unbranded, and NOT in any major municipality. Which leads me to wonder about their source, and quality of the gas (age, purity, etc).

Personally, I do not believe E10 does any damage to modern cars that are designed for it. That said, I think the environmental benefit is highly questionable. The link below states the energy balance is 1.3 in the US for corn produced ethanol. After factoring in the fossil fuel burned in its production. Fuel injected engines do not get the benefit from the extra oxygenate. And, we get the extra bonus of agriculture pollution -- i.e. fertilizer run off into the Gulf of Mexico killing marine lives.

Ethanol fuel energy balance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I tried to embrace and love ethanol, but I just can't, after reading the facts. I do use it daily, and go "meh".

I

 

Most are unbranded and you can find them on pure-gas. org. As to getting no ethanol in the gas majority of gasoline is shipped from the houston area. And they can order it with no ethanol since it is ussually blended in with the proprietart additives and detergents. Here in texas some counties are mandated to sell e10 (where i live is one but the next couty over it can be sold). Race gas, is also ordered from the same refineries as all the e10 in the US. Sunoco doesnt even own a refinery anymore. They buy all their own gas from other refineries.

 

I'm open minded about ethanol based upon:

• Energy gain (aka. energy balance) > 1.0 unity - we get more out than is put in
  • we can grow more ethanol feedstock
    • ethanol energy usage includes non-gasoline fuels
  • we can not grow gasoline or fossil feedstock
• $1.59/gal ethanol - EIA spot price 2014/10/12
  • 22.27 kWhr/gal
  • 14.01 kWhr/$
• $2.27/gal base gasoline - EIA spot price 2014/10/12
  • 33.41 kWhr/gal
  • 14.72 kWhr/$, +5% more energy per dollar

So I'm OK with ethanol as a national resource. But it is not sold by energy content as local E85 is marked up in disproportionate to the energy content.

I would prefer all cars handle everything from E0 to E85 which for running is just a question of fuel-trim. Both of our Prius worked just fine using E85 and only threw a code because the stock fuel trim is too narrow. There are after-market kits that spoof the injectors allowing E85 to run without a code. BTW, both Prius work with E50 and do not generate a code.

Bob Wilson

 

Ethanol is more expensive - look at the increased fertilizer use to grow E10 corn. What is the extra expense: look at the increasing "dead zone" in the gulf. Start your calculations there, don't use in the millions, more likely to be in the billions in cost to environmental damage.

DBCassidy

 

I would highly recommend using it only. It costs more but ethanol attracts water which can corrode your fuel system and cause costly repairs down the road.[/QUOTE]

If you are getting 10% better gas mileage with no-ethanol, that means the ethanol wasn't even burning. Seems unlikely.

Where do you imagine ethanol is 'attracting' water from? Ethanol fuel additive is used by us Northerners back in the day, since ethanol attracted the water in the gas tank to itself, (whence it could be removed). The fact that ethanol attracts water means that it protects your fuel system and prevents costly repairs down the road.

 

Bio-waste is a term that would probably be best avoided. 'Re-purposed fertilizer' might be a more accurate term, and makes clear that there is no free lunch.

 

Well this is my sentiment too. Except for the seems unlikely part: I wouldn't put it past them, lol.

IF there was a 10% reduction in mpg with ethanol-laced gas, it might be that ethanol is more detrimental than simply not burning, if (as I've read at least) E10 is actually cut less than 10%, say somewhere between 5~10%.

Edit: added red text

 

>In recent weeks ethanol prices have tanked down to $1.60/gal due to over-supply and a bumper crop corn year. This is contributing to the falling pump prices we are seeing right now. We seem to be heading for really low gaso prices by January 2015, when it usually swings back up in price.

>Ethanol has reduced energy content, but in theory E0 gives only +3% MPG gain over E10. However some Prius owners report more than +3% MPG gain with E0, which is possible because the gasoline portion energy content varies, up to +-7% more energy content, so you could see, in a best case scenario, maybe 10% better MPG.

>As far as why/where E0 comes from, Congress mandates that the major oil companies supply E10 or pay renewable energy credits, if they fail to meet their quota. So you could get limited E0 from majors if they met their quota or paid for credits. But more likely you'll get E0 from smaller oil companies that Congress allows to make E0 without paying the renewable credits. I am not sure about this, but the smaller oil companies may also have more freedom to make base gasoline with more energy content.

The ethanol quotas are highly political with the ethanol lobby pushing to maximize ethanol sales. It's so politicized, EPA has not even set the current year 2014 ethanol quotas yet (unless recently, but I did not hear that yet).

 

And yet with all the legislation regarding E10, the fuel economy testing's still with pure gas?

 

...the testing has not only been done with E0, but I think often it uses quite high energy content super primo Premium that many of us can only get in our dreams. But they have correlations to relate test results to average cars, so at least in the US, I don't think they are reporting raw test data to us. Rather it is fudge factored <how wonderful is that?>.

This is part of the reason why when we say US is going for 52 MPG by 2025, that is "CAFE" MPG...in reality that 52 "CAFE" MPG target is closer to 40 MPG or maybe less in a real car.

 

I have been using the zero ethanol gas for the last 4 tank and each tank my mpg is rising.this latest tank im projecting to get over 500 miles

 

The ethanol refinery in northern Iowa processing the cob part of the corn is clearly making an effort to better use a waste product. There is also a refinery somewhere in the southeast creating ethanol from the peeling part of oranges.

That certainly seems like a good use of the unwanted portion of a food.

 

Both of those things can be composted to produce the fertilizer needed to grow new food. Without that, fertilizer will need to come from somewhere else, the primary place is, at the moment, fossil fuels. So you are avoiding the use of fossil fuels in one place, only to require that use in another place. Furthermore, turning organics (in the chemistry sense) into non-organics, increases the effort needed to return those things to a organic state. We want to keep food inside the nutrient cycle as much as possible.

This is why 'waste' is a bad way to look at any thing.

 

Don't we have an abundance of material already being composted?

 

[AUS] In switching between regular 91 RON and E10, which boosts the RON to 95, I've noticed no FE differences in either my Prius v or Yaris.