Plug-In Hybrids vs. FCV

Here are 3 graphs from a recent (2013) US national labs (NREL) report on hydrogen production efficiencies, emissions, and costs.

The "Gasoline Hybrid Electric Vehicle" shown on one of the graphs is not a Prius -- it's shown as having ~350 g/mile of CO2 emissions so it's ~33 mpg whereas a Prius has about 222 g/mile at 50 mpg. It most likely represents a hybridized version of the "Conventional Gasoline Vehicle" shown on the same slide that gets ~24 mpg. This version of the graph shows the CO2 emissions of a FCV getting 68 miles on a kg of H2 which is roughly around what the 2015 Toyota is likely to get (there is another graph showing a 48 mile FCV which I'm not posting right now).

The bottom line is that a 68 mile per kg H2 car would having emissions of 250 g/mile CO2 which is slightly worse than today's Prius when using steam reformed natural gas. Another graph shows this to be the cheapest way of producing H2 and it is how almost all H2 is commercially made today. Renewable bio sources of H2 are not that much more expensive but then you could use the same bio sources to make renewable electricity instead.

These are taken from:

"Hydrogen Pathways

Updated Cost, Well-to-Wheels Energy Use, and Emissions for the Current Technology Status of Ten Hydrogen Production, Delivery, and Distribution Scenarios"


http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy14osti/60528.pdf

 

Hybrid Synergy Drive is an engineering term?

What GM spin? Micro-hybrid for stop/start systems isn't their doing, and they never called their bi-fuel a hybrid. Mazda did theirs.

Physics doesn't give a damn what we call a hybrid.

 

"The Volt is not a hybrid, it is an EREV."
Whateevvver

 

I would say it is both. It's an EREV and an EREV is a type of a hybrid.

 

If so, it is a dumbed down version since it has so little efficiency gains from combining fuels. Not zero, or it simply would be a bi-fuel car.

 

The CMAX Energi has combined EPA mpg of 38 vs 37 for Volt. I guess that's the threshold dividing line for whether or not a car is a hybrid?

 

I didn't bring that up.
Did their marketing actually say that? The paper I linked for the hybrid definition was a GM paper calling EREV a subset of PHV.

 

For added context, the NREL graphs show a 68 mile per kg H2 car emitting 250 g/mile of CO2e. FuelEconomy.gov shows a Volt on US average electricity (which is about the same as marginal NG generation) also emitting 250 g/mile based on its projected Utility Factor of grid recharged battery vs gas engine usage (which is consistent with OnStar statistics).

A Cadillac ELR is shown emitting 290 g/mile (in CA it is shown emitting 230 g/mile). A Hyundai Tucson FCV gets 47-49 miles per kg so NREL would project 350 g/mile emissions for it.

So, again, why are we distracting ourselves and wasting all this money and engineering resources on fool cells for passenger cars?

 

Yes, but again, I expect about the same time the toyota fcv comes out there will be an even lower ghg gen II volt and a lower ghg prius. The i3 is much cleaner. The outlander phev should also be available to compete against the tucson fcv. The only dimension the fcv might be better than those cars is in using less oil. We can easily correct for that in volume. 3 prii (liftback, phv, or c) improve the environment in california more than each fcv. 3 erev phevs (outlander, volt, i3+rex) improve the environment more in california than 2 fcv.

Politics?
And it is up to the california voter to tell the governor that these extra incentives should end at the end of 2017, when they expire, and to change the head of carb and cec if they continue to favor fuel cells over the environment.

I am all for continuing the current test. Politics is slow, and it will be easier to show how wastefull the stations are when the test results are in. I believe that stations over 68 can still be cancelled. Let's see if its chicken and egg, or if fuel cells are simply too expensive. In 2017 DOE can determine how much ghg and natural gas per mile, as long as toyota, honda, and hyundai provide them with telematic data, or even just odometer data from the fleet.

 

GM just tossed out some new Volt 2.0 engineering details on the engine and battery pack.

Update: my thread got merged with another one. See trollbait's post below for the new link.

 

Got an error there. Let's try this:
GM releases some teasers for Volt 2.0 | PriusChat

 

The new ICE is interesting because it is DI. I wonder what the tailpipe emissions will be.

Nah. The Energi has a much larger engine compared to the Volt. That would be an apples to oranges comparo.

GM has the correct comparo available: the Volt in CS mode vs the Cruze
Compare Side-by-Side

 

It will very likely be the 1.5L engine in the new "Small Gasoline" engine family or some variation on it. This family is a new design just beginning to show up in cars.

GM Small Gasoline Engine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

I'm very happy they are working on the noise and vibration issue. That is my only real complaint about the car. Sure the Ford and BMW products and even the Prius have the same issues but going from the bliss of pure EV to the noise of a rev'd up engine in CS Mode sucks.