4th generation coming 2015!

I was recently indicating ~ 80 MPH for 60% of a 14 mile drive. The rest was 70 MPH and a few miles of city driving.
I arrived with 47.5 on the gage in dry, near sea level, 58 F flat road.

Was in Power Mode. it might have driven better in normal mode, but the car seemed to need a lot of 'babysitting' on gas pedal to keep it at 80 and it sure didn't have a planted , stable feel to it.

It's a lot better just under 70 MPH.

 

'No one' Wants Toyota To Build An EV, Says Toyota Manager - HybridCars.com

Toyota has made it clear they don't see an immediate future in pure EVs. Can't say I completely disagree with them.

Using the Apple analogy, Apple sells the "premium" end of the spectrum of smart phones and now others have to fight for the profit scraps on the mid and low end in a race to the bottom.

Toyota would be joining the mid/low end EV race filled with lots of competitors with dismal profit hopes. On the other hand, they already have the edge with the most fuel efficient hybrid, which is reportedly profitable, and look to want to take the lead with H2 where no competition yet exists.

Hopefully shying away from full EV means they will still keep their foot in the door with plug-ins like the PiP. Maintaining leading hybrid MPG and doubling EV range would make the PiP an even more attractive vehicle for longer distance commuters and doesn't require any significant advances in technology or price on the part of Toyota.

 

I read PC every day. I read the pros and the cons. I agree with some of both. For reference, I own a 2010, with 103,000 miles. It is all original except for the tires, which are Michelin energy savers. I have driven across the country and returned 5 times, and I make a 800 mile trip every month. My lifetime fuel average is just a bit better than 52 mpg. I have no fault with the performance, ride, comfort, reliability and fuel efficiency. What more could one ask from a vehicle?

I believe the Prius to be a masterful design, which criteria was to design and market at a reasonable price a clean burning, fuel efficient, mid-size sedan delivering more fuel efficiency in the city than on the highway. That criteria has been achieved beginning in 2010, and has not been bettered by any other manufacturer to this day. In that context, fuel efficiency at 80 mph is beyond reasonable. If performance is your desire, buy a Corvette; if EV is your goal, buy a Tesla; if interior space is your need, buy a Suburban; if hauling or towing in your desire, but a truck, but do not complain that the Prius does not do all of the above. That is my opinion. What is yours?

 

I do 80-82 mph on 440 miles (round trip) of freeway once a month or so (see my fuelly stats) and get ~45 mpg on eco mode with a fairly loaded car. I must have gotten used to pedal pressure, as I don't feel that I'm pushing it - sometimes use cruise ctl. Compared to other vehicles, I'm content with 45 mpg. Sure 60 would be nice, but would need serious battery assist to go along with that. Would be hard to maintain for those 3 hrs (each way) of highway driving.

Prius (Toyota Prius) | Fuelly

 

I don't think pure EV will gain a huge market share (> 3%) until the range hits 300-400 miles and the extra cost is less than $5k, which might not be for another 5-10 yrs. I think pure EV sales will continue to grow, but not take off until the "Prius" of the EV cars comes along. Toyota started at the low end and is working their way up slowly to the higher end. Tesla started at the high end and is working their way down to the low end. Who will hit the sweet spot first and have the first million seller EV? Toyota, Tesla, or someone else?

 

My comment about improved efficiency at Motorway speed is really about addressing a weakness in Gen3. However, Gen 3 is known to be better than Gen2 at Motorway efficiency and I was merely expressing my wish that Gen4 will be even better. No one is suggesting that Gen4 needs to perform like an Audi R8 at the top-end of acceleration. As it stands now with Gen3, the optimal speed range for efficiency is 40 - 60 mph and if this range can be extended to (say) 40 - 70 mph for Gen4 then that would be sufficient.

As for my ignorance of physics... well, my day job involves Electronics Research and I am fairly sure I scored well in my undergrad physics papers but then, you know what they say - that ignorance, education, knowledge are all relative terms

 

Take a look at this MPG Vs MPH thread from BobWilson. The 'optimal speed range for efficiency' as something of a bell shape is a fiction. I'll guess the idea has been borrowed from graphs of isolated Otto engines. An Atkinsonized engine in a car, let alone hybrid, is something quite different.

Post #10 is particularly instructive since you can look at Gen2 and Gen3 curves. The initial euphoria over ~ 10% improvements in fuel economy at higher motorway speeds turned out to be mostly an artefact of a biased MPG display in the Gen3 series. There is a little improvement, but that is in my opinion more to do with adding a reduction gear to the HSD than changes to the engine. Substantial further improvement in the transmission is not available. The jump to 1.8L engine size appealed to drivers who feel obliged to pass on inclines, and the change certainly reduced the frequency of traction battery depletions on long uphills. It is not fuel economy magic at high speeds and an even larger engine is not either.

Toyota has said for a couple of years now that they expect to produce ICE engines with peak efficiency of ~ 41%, followed by 43% a few years later. This will improve fuel economy by some 5% at any speed, but it has nothing to do with hybrid at 80 MPH.

 

What too many drivers do NOT know nor realize is that once you go faster than about 55 mph, it's ALL about aerodynamic drag:

1) Aerodrag is a squared function of velocity.
2) Horsepower is a cubic function of velocity.

...which is *why* at highway speeds, it's more efficient (easier) to design for a lower coefficient of drag (Cd·A) than it is to design for a higher HP-capable engine.

 

I agree in some ways, but I don't see why the next generation Prius shouldn't improve highway mpg if it's possible to do so by reducing drag. Why limit the liftback to being a "city car", when the Prius C is so clearly designed for that? If the tradeoff is a seat / view that's a few inches lower, I think most people would take that.

 

There are two big sets of Prius buyers

1. The first group wants to pay less in fuel for the way they have always driven and will continue to drive barring an astronomical price at the pump
2. The second group wants to use less fuel, and drives in an energy efficient manner. This group does not drive 80 MPG, so the relative benefit to them of a lower Cd is less. For all the people in this group who appreciate the cabin space and practicality that the car provides, in addition to easier and safer driving that comes from good visibility, your desired trade-off is none too enticing.

As it is, the Prius already pushes the envelope of design (and trade-offs) to reach the Cd it currently enjoys.

 

Did a quick search on google today. Guess what?

Almost all major car companies are already saying they're targeting the "2016 prius" lol. So...this means the competition will be ratcheted up considerably. I hope Toyota is ready. Most of the articles are stating a car that is pure hybrid (and not a regular fitted with a hybrid engine).

Hyundai announced it, Ford announced it. Chevy, who next?

 

You speak as if you represent toyota and pretend to splash out proven facts, I am afraid you are no more enlightened than the rest of us here in the forum. If Toyota wants to aim high and appeal to a wider audience, they will look past the needs of enthusiasts.

Here in Europe, Toyota has not really won over Diesels - on a dual carriageway with the left lane hogged up with slow moving heavy vehicles, there really is no option but to move on the fastmoving lane and if that happens to be @ 80mph so be it. If drag coeff is the bottleneck, I am fairly certain Toyota will improve on that. If ice efficiency at speed needs improvent, toyota will definitely address that too. Toyota knows not to under estimate its competition & the moment we start talking about appealing to a wider market & winning, they will know to look beyond basic utility value. It doesnt really matter whether there are two or ten types of Prius buyers, the car needs to be improved. Yes its easy said than done but thats why Toyota has the necessary talent to stay on top of the game.

 

If Toyota wants to aim high and appeal to a wider audience, they will need to look past the needs of enthusiasts - I am certain they will.

Here in Europe, Toyota has not really won over Diesels - on a dual carriageway with the left lane hogged up with slow moving heavy vehicles, there really is no option but to go in the fastmoving lane and if that happens to be @ 80mph so be it. If drag coeff is the bottleneck, I am fairly certain Toyota will improve on that. If ice efficiency at speed needs improvent, toyota will definitely address that too. Toyota knows not to under estimate its competition & the moment we start talking about appealing to a wider market & winning, they will know to look beyond basic utility value. It doesnt really matter whether there are two or ten types of Prius buyers, the car needs to be improved in every possible way. Yes its easy said than done but thats why Toyota has the necessary talent to stay on top of the game.

 

Except I wouldn't put money on any of those companies to deliver. Regardless, Toyota has given the industry a nice target to aim for - they've raised the bar.

 

Sorry, I'll not take the straw-man bait.
Now your turn: is driving 80 mph in the UK actually common and mainstream, or are you misrepresenting your marginal behavior ?

And back to my only point in this exchange: Hybrid improvements will not stand out at 80 mph.

 

Give them long enough time they'll deliver. I think all the companies have played around with hybrids long enough. Plus, the patents expired the beginning of this year didn't it? So Gen III tech should be achievable or really close to.

It's almost like the Apple vs Android battle, Internet Explorer vs Firefox,

 

So, do we actually know the date or month that the 4th generation will be released?

 

Yes driving between 70-80mph is very common here in the UK, at one point the government was considering increasing the Motorway speed limit to 80mph but later put the proposals on hold due to opposition from safety campaigners. Then there are countries like Germany and the famous autobahn where there are no limits. We don't really have to go that extreme - the simple point is that if you have to take a Motorway 30-40 miles everyday and the limited number of lanes mean you have to move with the flow, I am afraid there is absolutely no chance of driving at or below 70mph. Also you have to appreciate, whilst we don't have to repeat the sort of hard acceleration and braking cycles encountered in the fastest Motorway lane, there is absolutely no way to completely ignore the dynamics of traffic flow and selfishly drive as you prefer. The road is a common resource and just as we follow rules for lane discipline and return to left hand lanes where possible, we also cannot impose our own personal driving style on everyone else.

Toyota decided to take the Gen2 1.5L Hybrid ICE, add a few enhancements and produce the Toyota Yaris HSD which has been on sale here in the UK since 2012. It has a claimed average efficiency of about 8mpg higher than the prius but you will find many owners here complaining they are unable to reach anywhere near its claimed efficiency in mixed town and motorway driving. Some of these owners already own a Prius and they are very familiar with getting the best out of a Hybrid. We learnt this lesson in our household when we got a Yaris HSD for my wife and later had to trade it in for a Auris HSD which has the Gen3 drivetrain.

So the bottom line is that if Prius Gen 4 has to appeal to a wider audience, it will need to be efficient at higher motorway speeds, no doubt about that whatsoever. I am also extremely confident, Gen4 figures will reflect that.

 

Reasons for diesel highway superiority is:
- Higher diesel energy content per volume (10-15%)
- Diesel engine efficiency at highway load will be good if the gearing is right (in the 35% - 40% range)
- Lower manual transmission losses. Prius loses are more with transferring half of power through electrical path.

I know of only two ways to improve Prius drivetrain highway efficiency:
- clutch with one or two fixed highway gears
- higher ICE efficiency

 

I am also from europe. My experiences are the same as yours. The current Prius doesn't offer anything but maybe a small improvement in gas mileage compared to much more powerful and fun to drive diesel vehicles. These vehicles often have 4WD capability as well as towing capability. None of Toyotas hybrids in europe offers towing which is really important to many people here. The early success of the Prius Plugin is over. Other companies offers more exciting and usable alternatives such as Outlander PHEV or Volvos S60 Plugin. Longer ranges and better performance. Now the new Volvo XC90 on sale, with an outstanding plugin version coming in a few months. Let alone at a higher price than the Prius but Toyotas reluctance to more plug-vehicles starts to have a real penalty on their sales. What they need to do is of course a substantially improved Gen IV to compete with the diesels in terms of vehicle price, MPG and performance. Also, more plugin vehicles are wished for, probably they should have a 4WD plugin SUV to be successful. The Outlander PHEV are outperfoming the sales of all other hybrids by far this year in Sweden.