Honda, Toyota, and Hyundai answer fuel cell questions

Source: http://www1.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/pdfs/32405b15.pdf

Between high school and college, I worked in an ice plant using ammonia refrigerants so I have some direct experience. <grins> Then there was this fun machine:


Bob Wilson

 

Liquid water is also already compressed, and atmospheric pressure is all that is keeping our oceans from boiling away

The pressure within a liquid hydrogen tank is doing the same in slowing the boiling off process. Given enough insulation, only atmospheric pressure would be needed for this purpose. As it is, liquid tanks have a 6 to 350 bar pressure head on them. http://www1.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/pdfs/fct_h2_storage.pdf At 350 is likely when the vent valve opens and drops the pressure back down. To fill the 700 bar (10k psi) tanks on a car, and do so for a reasonable volume, the liquid hydrogen would need to be heated in, well, a boiler.

But that doesn't appear to be how the process is handled at a station. There the liquid hydrogen is allowed to boil off and then recompressed for fueling. The compression process could be more efficient by keeping the boiled off liquid at a higher pressure. So a liquid supplied station may only need one stage of compression vs. the two at a reformer one. The speed of that compressor and the volume of the fill tank is going to be the bottleneck at either station.
How a hydrogen filling station works; AutoblogGreen tours new facility in Taylor, MI
That station is older, and maybe they have gone to a boiler type system. It is still a question of the size, and how quickly it can be filled, for the fill tank.

 

idk. Here is the whistler station that could handle 200 cars, that does handle 20 busses. You don't need a boiler simply let the liquid warm a little. The emeryvile fueling station in california is also liquid so that it can fuel busses and cars fast enough. Both have renewable hydrogen trucked in. I am sure you could do it with compressed, but you need much bigger tanks, and this seems quite big.

 

"Check your oil and water, Sir?"

"Hummm, that fan belt looks not good."

"Don't mind the hazard suit, we all love 'em. Hydrogen is perfectly safe. It is in water."

Bob Wilson

 

the first explosion will make ev fires look like campfires and marshmallows.

 

It has the same heat exchangers as the station in Michigan. The liquid tanks also look the same, there is just two of them. It also uses compressors. I know there is one he talks about near the end for capturing otherwise vented gas, but it was also mentioned earlier. Sound quality wasn't great, but I don't know what else that back ground noise can be besides a compressor. Without further details, I'd say it is the same basic set up as that Michigan station. Let the liquid vaporize(the relative pressure can still be high), and then compress it into the filling tank.

The Mi. station could only fill to 5000 psi. Since the Whistler station is mostly for buses it to might be for 5000 psi. No mention of the volume the Mi station could process, but the high volume at Whistler seems to be simply a function of using larger tanks.

I knew boiler could be problematic, but that is basically whatever you call it would do. I figure if the station didn't use compressors, it would want a controlled way of heating the liquid to the desired pressure. Using ambient heat alone, like in the vaporizers, may not be enough to handle a rush. I think it could work. It is the same principles as used in a propane refrigerator.

 

It is a 1000 kg station, that can fill at 10,000 psi or 5,000 psi. If they trucked in more liquid than it could use multiple loads in a day. They use compressors so they don't have to vent, and probably to complete a fill. They have demonstrated filling 20 busses continuously (10 minutes a bus, 50kg can be dispensed in 10 minutes)

some details.
http://gofuelcellbus.com/uploads/AirLiquide_reduced.pdf
Whistler’s hydrogen buses to be scrapped, replaced by diesel - The Globe and Mail

 

Currently most gas stations are basically autonomous and staffed by minimum wage employees. Who "runs" these high-tech hydrogen stations? How much daily maintenance is required, etc?

 

I don't fault FCV makers for only selling to people near a fueling station. BEV and PHEV makers are doing the same thing. <VBG>

 

Unless hydrogen gas is trapped, there is no explosion. But it does burn almost invisibly. So much so, one of my training classes on hydrogen safety used a stick with paper at the end to determine if there was indeed a fire. I kid you not.

 

Can we get a map showing where the California FCV advocates live and the refueling stations?

"Congratulations on your appointment to the CARB! Where would you like us to put your hydrogen refueling station?"

Bob Wilson

 

green are open, yellow is what they plan to open. Forget going to vegas or to northn california (I wouldn't chance anything north of the wine country). You will be able to drive to the tesla satisfactory in Reno though.
Station map | California Fuel Cell Partnership

 

Greencars take on the carbon footprint between BEV and FCV, "While the point that the carbon footprint of generating electricity must be accounted for is entirely correct, we're slightly startled that our question wasn't interpreted to assume identical sources for each "

I don't think they should have been surprised that the responses would assume identical sources if it wasn't spelled out.

 

No unfortunately its no surprise, its part of the misleading message the fuel cell lobby puts out.

We have the classic Toyota chart that says they are cleaner, because everything will come from natural gas (and bevs must use older less efficient natural gas plants, which fcv will get new most efficient reformers with tech that will be invented in the future).

now both hyundai and toyota compare in their wells to wheels national US energy production and give bevs no credit for renewables, but give fcv full credit for grid tied renewables to produce hydrogen but apply none of the cost of trucking the hydrogen to fueling stations. In other words baffle them with bull shit.

So we must simply account for them as politicians as they are all in the act of lobbying the american public for funds, and they will not answer questions asked. No its not suprising because an honest answer is not one they are pushing. It would not garner a fcv 3x the zev credits of a 100 mile bev. Honda here had the best answer without lying directly.

This is nice as even though the carbon footprint of the clarity running on natural gas reformed hydrogen is higher than say a prius, the state is mandating enough renewable electricity to bring the clarity lower. The point that must be acknowledged though then, from this type of analysis, is these are not greener or cleaner than plug-ins.

 

I don't know if it is true, but I have the impression Honda would have been fine extending the Fit EV program in the US for compliance if Toyota hadn't started pushing their FCV here, and CARB changing the ZEV credits to favor fuel cells.

 

I believe that is true. As for hyundai/kia they are doing both. Why both?

- See more at: Far Afield: Hyundai Motor Group Haphazardly Expands Green Car Lineup | BusinessKorea
hyundai/kia's cost are high for fuel cell vehicles. They know they are at least a decade away from having costs competitive in korea for fcvs. Plug-ins also don't sell in korea, but they do in the US.

We do have bosch weighing in that in a decade things may be different.
Fuel-cell cars will be commercially viable by 2025: Bosch executive| Reuters

bosche doen't talk about long range bevs like the tesla S, but these are expensive too, just less expensive for similar performance than fcv.

 

BMW plans new hydrogen-fuelled i5 | Autocar

 

BMW isn't planning to release a fcv until 2018 at the earliest. They have plenty of time to cancel what they are working on if fcv stumble. The rumors are a fcv of an i3 or an i5(yet unknown). The i3 really is something easier to pop it into, so I would ask or a source on a new i5, and autocar definitely doesn't have one from inside bmw. Here is the beginning of an i5 plug-in rumor
2017 BMW i5 Rendered &#8211; News &#8211; Car and Driver

That made me chuckle a little as mercedes already has been leasing a fuel cell vehicle the f-cell. They just aren't going to make anymore for atleast 3 years, as they see if costs go down. bmw and nissan just don't want to fall too far behind if the technology takes off, or if regulators get even more generous with money.

blast from the past in 2013.
Hydrogen Fuel-Cell Cars? Daimler Delays, Seeks Nissan, Ford As Partners