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Head Unit vs Amp upgrade

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Audio and Electronics' started by Noppy, Dec 1, 2014.

  1. Noppy

    Noppy New Member

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    Ok, so i read quite a few threads on audio upgrades in the gen 3 prius and figured the best bang for my buck was an install of new front door speakers. I have a basic 2011 prius btw Non JBL.

    Well as I found out after fabricating some nice speaker mounts and getting everything just right......
    They sound empty, crappy even (They being a pair of infinity 9633cf 3 ways). So... I looked up reasons why and this is what I'm thinking.

    1. I installed something wrong (Even though my connections are soldered and fit tightly and so do the speakers)
    2. My lack of Dynamat or window flashing is causing a loss in all mid to low range freq.
    3. More likely, the stock HU is a pile (as is well known) and it's under powering my speakers as well as messing with the audio signals that go to my front door speakers. ( I read and watched a companies video online that makes a whole component that takes the signals from the stock HU and "fixes" them so people can keep their stock HU and have good sound I thought this was a hilarious waste of money and a testament to the HU's poor quality)

    So my real question is what should I do next, I hope in the future to add all of the below but I don't have the money right now. Here are my options as I see it.

    1. New Head Unit possibly (Pioneer MVH-X560BT)?
    2. 4 Channel amp ( Maybe all it needs is a boost in power and the HU signal won't mess up the sound quality)
    3. A powered Sub (Honestly the high freq. are way better sounding now, but theres nothing on the bottom end, maybe a sub could bring that fullness I'm craving)
    4. Dynamat or whatever to the doors and magically all my problems will go away

    As I can only afford one option right now, I am wondering which one would be the best upgrade? I'm no audiophile and I thought I could get a decent sounding system after reading Nugimon's posts with his infinities but this is not good quality to me.
     
  2. neez

    neez Member

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    Those speakers are designed to handle up to 100watts rms and 300 peak. I think the larger speaker material is just too hard to push without enough wattage to power them. I'd say, go for the amplifier if you want the best sound right away. A powered sub is just a bandaid, and you'll still be missing some midrange. A new head unit will help, but you might still feel something is missing. Dynamat helps when you have alot of bass, doubt that's your issue here.

    I'm probably going to buy this one for my car.
     
  3. mrstop

    mrstop PWR Mode

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    My solution (if I ever get around to installing my equipment) is to run the factory head unit through a DSP to clean up the signal and then through the amp to the speakers.

    I agree, that once you start to upgrade your speakers, you will want an amp to provide proper juice them. Also, you will need/want it regardless of the head unit, so I would start there. I would get a nice 5 channel Class D amp so you can run a front mid in the doors and a tweeter in the dash as well as power a sub (I bought an Alpine PDX V9).

    You will probably also benefit from adding a separate tweeter in the dash. It will help "raise the soundstage and provide a better path to your ears. Of course, then you will need some sort of DSP/Crossover unit to separate/optimize the signal.

    If you want an upgrade path:
    1) 5 channel amplifier
    2) DSP or crossover
    2) tweeters for your dash
    3) subwoofer run off off 5 channel amp
    4) head unit (although some my put this first - note that while they are hard to find some units allow you to adjust & run active so in theory you could skip the DSP/Crossover)

    Sound deadening will make a great improvement on many levels. I would avoid slapping Dynamat everywhere as it is costly and not as effective as other approaches. Look at Welcome to Sound Deadener Showdown | Sound Deadener Showdown for what I feel is the best approach. You could start on the doors and then add on as budget/time allows.
     
  4. rogan

    rogan Junior Member

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    I wouldn't follow any of the advice already given.

    First thing to check is whether the speakers are in phase. If they're out of phase then you lose the lower frequencies.
    If the speakers are wired correctly then there's a problem with their enclosure. Dynamat (or similar product) makes a massive difference to midbass reproduction.

    If the speakers aren't working off the headunit, then there will be no magical cure by adding amps or changing headunit
     
  5. lopgok

    lopgok Member

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    The most important speakers are the dash speakers.
    The door speakers are ok, but your ears are nowhere near your ankles.

    It is true that the factory head unit messes with the frequency response to the speakers.
    A DSP can fix this. I used a JBL MS-8.
    However, I installed it after I replaced all the car speakers.

    Getting decent, reasonable efficient dash speakers is the best bang for the buck.
    They can be had for around $50. I used the pioneers and then the polks.

    You should put some dampening material in the doors, just because they are so tinny and undamped.
    It won't make crappy sound great, but it will help reduce rode noise and may add some clarity.

    Don't forget that the dash speakers and front door speakers are driven from the same output of the amp.
    This is less than ideal. You really want efficient speakers.

    Most infinity speakers, including yours have 2 ohm impedance which may be nice to get more power from an aftermarket amp, but will severely load an OEM amp. In addition, most infinity 2 ohm speakers efficiency is specified at 2.82 volts, which is 2 watts rather than everyone else who uses 1 watt to specify efficiency. In addition, 2 ohm speakers require wires twice as thick as 4 ohm speakers for the same power loss.

    I would toss the infinity speakers as long as you are using the OEM head unit. Whoever advised you to use them in your set up is clueless.
    If you do run full range dash speakers, you might want to add 2 ohm resistors in series with them as well as the front door speakers to minimize the load on your amp.
     
  6. Noppy

    Noppy New Member

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    Speakers are in phase and working, just checked. Thanks for the troubleshoot though! I should make it clear that my wife thinks it's all just fine right now, I guess I'm a bit more picky.


    Lopgok,
    I have heard that upgrading the dash speakers makes quite the difference but (and I may be totally off) I don't believe this will help my mid bass, and its the lack of mid to lower frequencies that I'm missing.

    I was worried that i was way off getting these speakers... will getting an aftermarket amp allow me to keep these speakers? I would upgrade the dash speakers as well. would the full range dash speakers compliment the infinities?

    Did you notice a significant improvement after the DSP? or was the speaker replacement beforehand the largest improvement?

    Thanks for the information
     
  7. lopgok

    lopgok Member

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    Dash speakers won't do much for mid bass. The door speakers can do some good, but not a whole lot.
    That is why I put in two 12" woofers in my trunk.

    There is nothing inherently wrong with the Infinity speakers. I think 2 ohm speakers are silly because they need thick wires.
    Also I suspect the OEM amp puts out roughly 5w RMS per channel. Since that is divided between the dash and front door that leaves your Infinity speakers with roughly 2.5w RMS each.
    If you do get an amp, get one with lots of channels. You will want different channels for the dash speakers and the door speakers.
    The rear door speakers are pretty useless.

    The DSP was the largest difference. With it, and no subwoofer, I found a reasonable amount of mid-bass.
    I got the MS-8 on sale for $400. Using just it and reasonably inexpensive speakers made quite a lot of difference.
    It also cost about twice as much as all the speakers I put in.

    If you really want, we could meet somewhere and you could hear my system; I am not so far away from you.
    If you use reasonably efficient speakers, you don't need a really big amp. I am using 8x20w from my MS-8, and it is plenty loud for me.
    I did run the wires for a subwoofer amp, but I decided I didn't need it.

    See weasel.com: 2012 Toyota Plug in Prius Stereo for all the prius audio mods I made.
     
  8. Noppy

    Noppy New Member

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    I keep going back and forth in my head between HU and amp. With the info so far here is how I see it:

    1. Prius HU is underpowered and distorts frequencies to speakers (this is to optimize OEM speakers and can cause most aftermarket speakers to sound worse than OEM speakers as they aren't optimized for the HU)
      1. The HU also uses small wires (In my case not ideal for infinity speakers that need silly large wires haha)
      2. 2.5 w RMS for my speakers is outrageously low HAHAHA (Where did you find this, I looked all over for RMS ratings on the OEM HU, Thanks)
    2. I have two routes that make sense to me (As always I like any input)
      1. New HU (Wait Wait, Heres why):
        1. ANY HU I'm looking at will improve RMS to at least 14 watts
          1. separating the dash and door speakers this would be more than 5 times the current power for each
          2. Allows me to use silly large wires for 2 ohm speakers easily
          3. No need for $400+ DSP (HU equalizer and controls would be fine for my standards)
          4. Will upgrade dash speakers at same time because its cheap $50
          5. costs about $250 in total (I do my own work) including harnesses and parts to make steering wheel interface and other accessories work.
          6. if I really feel the need for more power I can install an amp later (lets say another $400) making the total $650
        2. Get an amp $400
          1. Boosts power to speakers and allows use of silly large wires
          2. To fix HU distortion I would need to get a DSP or new HU
          3. Upgrade dash speakers $50
          4. Pretty much the same thing with an amp first...
    3. I'm sure DSP's are great and make most if not any HU sound better but...
      1. I have a problem with the principle of taking something crappy (OEM HU output) and then making it decent/ good with a DSP.
      2. If I was a high roller and could afford a DSP I think i would make sure to maximize the HU first so I would be taking something good and making it excellent.
    I am curious what mrstop is referring to with this HU "adjust and run active"
    4) head unit (although some my put this first - note that while they are hard to find some units allow you to adjust & run active so in theory you could skip the DSP/Crossover)
     
  9. frodoz737

    frodoz737 Top Wrench

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  10. Noppy

    Noppy New Member

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    Thanks, my three staple posts that I have been looking at are yours, spiderman, and aleman. Not that I'm basing my setup of any, but I definitely look at all the pics :)

    A general question that popped up for anyone.... What dash speaker (Assuming I got a new head unit) would go well with my current infinities?
     
  11. lopgok

    lopgok Member

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    Since I have a PiP, the head unit has all kinds of tie-ins with the car. It shows energy usage over time and other junk.
    It also has a 'car' button that does other car specific stuff. If not for that, I would have tossed the head unit a long time ago.
    I am not sure about the power output of the OEM head unit, I took a wild guess. I really like the sony CDX-GT700HD because I listen to the radio a lot and it has the best radio ever. It also has a 17w RPS per channel, which is surely a whole lot more than the OEM radio.

    I was thinking last night about your midbass issue. You know the door has a whole lot of holes in it, that probably are not helping the sound. In addition, it has two really big sheets of plastic that will flap around when you are playing lower frequencies. It would surely help if you did something to reduce the flapping of the plastic. I just covered them with dampening material. If necessary, it could be cut through to access the interior of the door. Others cover the plastic with wire mesh or sheet snd then cover that with dampening material. I think you would notice an improvement if you did that. Before doing that, you should dampen the ohter door skin, as it will be really difficult to do after covering up the plastic sheet....

    As for dash speaker, I used the polk Audio DXi350.
     
  12. frodoz737

    frodoz737 Top Wrench

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    Using coax or triax speakers in place of the front door woofers, with the dash sqwaker still hooked up is not helping. This is why I went with components and new wiring up front. Coax speakers are better for back door filler.
     
  13. mrstop

    mrstop PWR Mode

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    Some head units which have built in cross-over and time alignment capabilities rather than having to run an external unit. One highly regarded example is the Pioneer DEH-80PRS. Unfortunately, these are hard to find, especially in a double-din unit.
     
  14. rogan

    rogan Junior Member

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    You need a decent budget to go active or even semi active. stay passive: it's easier and cheaper.

    My suggestion is now to add a 10" sub and amp. Mask the missing midbass with sub bass and you'll probably be happy. it's the best bang for buck even if you're not a basshead. Forget buying new front speakers and amps until you've done this.