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Prius PHEV As London Taxi

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by bwilson4web, Dec 3, 2014.

  1. telmo744

    telmo744 HSD fanatic

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    The current Prius HV is already zero emission most of the time in urban cycle. 66% of the time the ICE is off.
     
  2. GrumpyCabbie

    GrumpyCabbie Senior Member

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    In the EU widely optimistic, unrealistic test, yes.

    In the 120-150 daily mileage of a private taxi driver and 200-300 daily mileage of a fleet taxi vehicle I can guarantee the PIP won't be running zero emissions for 16% of the time, let alone 66%. Sorry.
     
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  3. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Isn't the EU updating their tests soon?
     
  4. GrumpyCabbie

    GrumpyCabbie Senior Member

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    Probably, but I doubt it will reflect high mileage taxi use which is the reason for this thread.
     
  5. telmo744

    telmo744 HSD fanatic

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    Wrong, US FTP cycle (urban), tested by Argonne.

    It seems you've forgotten how long the ICE remains off in city streets...

    I've "let" the math for others...
    Please find chapt 4.1, table 2, read 66% warmed, and 63% cold
    www.ipd.anl.gov/anlpubs/2010/06/67317.pdf
     
  6. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    I think Grumpy is saying that only a small fraction of the 'source' fuel is electricity. He probably knows better than most that a taxi spends a lot of time not moving, but his argument is about when the car is moving.
     
    #46 SageBrush, Dec 7, 2014
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2014
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  7. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    I cannot help but read a disconnect in reasoning amongst the people who poo-poo smallish battery PHEVs

    If I said a next Gen Prius was going to increase EPA MPG from 50 to 60 I think the general tone would be oohs and ahhhhs, but if they hear about a PiP that supplies 20% of motive energy by electricity there is disdain for the petrol savings -- even though they are equal in the two cars.

    A 50 MPG Prius driven e.g. 130 miles a day can increase its liquid MPG to 60 if 26 miles are EV. That could be a single charge a day of a 6 kWh (usable) battery, or two charges a day of the Gen1 PiP.
     
  8. GrumpyCabbie

    GrumpyCabbie Senior Member

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    I haven't. But a 15 mile range isn't going to last a 10-12 hour shift over 150 miles. Nor is it going to last a 24 hour shift in full commercial taxi fleet use.

    Many taxi drivers are/were changing to the Prius. I don't see many falling over to buy the PIP. Once that changes I'll reconsider my view. I doubt it will change with the gen1 PIP.
     
  9. css28

    css28 Senior Member

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    That's partly because they know that the electricity wasn't free ($ or carbon footprint). A PiP getting 60 liquid mpg isn't the equivalent of a car getting 60 mpg without the battery charge.

    To me (a Prius and Volt owner) the value of my electric car comes when I can run an errand or a leg of my daily commute *without cranking the ICE awake*. As long as the outdoor temperature's above 15 degrees F I can do that.
    As a result I have 275 liquid mpg over the 17,500 miles of ownership. an 1,800 mile vacation trip dragged it down to that. My daily commute is 38 miles.

    Beyond bragging rights it means that I'll only have to pump gas in a winter coat once this season and that I'll do my first oil change at 26,000 miles (based on calendar years).
     
  10. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    It would be a very unusual cabbie who cares about carbon emissions. Money wise, electricity is *much* cheaper than petrol in London, the focus of discussion. It is either free, or I think about 4 pence a mile for residential. Compare that to petrol at ~ 10p/mile.
     
  11. css28

    css28 Senior Member

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    Even if your estimate is correct, 40% of petrol isn't free.

    Mostly though I was addressing your equating a 60 liquid mpg PiP with a genuine 60 mpg hybrid. The cab driver will opt for the latter, naturally.
     
  12. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    *Up to* 4p/mile EV in London. Lots of charge points are free. And do not forget the London Congestion charge. That is currently 10£ a day; and while not currently levied on taxis, that will no doubt change as London gets more serious about correcting its non-compliance with EU air quality mandates.
     
  13. telmo744

    telmo744 HSD fanatic

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    Yes, I believe Trollbait was the first to throw a less accurate "zero emission" sentence. ;)
     
  14. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Yes, a PPI or similar plug in hybrid can mean a sizable decrease in liquid fuel consumption, but you also need to factor in the cost of time with regards to cabbies. For a PPI cab doing 130miles a day to reach that 60mpg would require a second charge of at least an hour at the fastest rate the car can handle. I don't think cabbies do long lunches when getting paid relies on moving fares, and even if common, public chargers aren't on every street corner. Remember, the PPI gains about 0.06 to 0.07 an EV mile for every minute plugged into a level 2 charger. It could be up to 0.1 mile/min or so when the pack is depleted and not too warm.
    A linked article about London requiring taxi's to be zero emission in the future was the first. Right now, PPI qualifies to avoid the congestion charge for personal use vehicles because thay can hold their EV miles until they get to the city, and the range likely covers the miles driven there for most of the miles people visiting or with business in the city will drive. A taxi gets driven many more miles within that 'zero emission' zone. If the current PPI(and even the next one and Volt) get certified as 'zero emission' for taxi use, they won't actually be 'zero emission' for their entire shift within the city.

    So the PPI may become popular as a car for hire, if London requires 'zero emission' and the PPI qualifies for it, but it likely won't emit much less than a non-plug Prius during a typical shift in reality.
     
  15. GrumpyCabbie

    GrumpyCabbie Senior Member

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    Agreed about the lunch. It doesn't happen. If the wheels aren't turning you ain't earnin'.

    You're not about to drive to a charge point (even half a mile), park up, plug in the cable, open your book and take a bite out of your sandwich for an hour. You have a sandwich or burger on the go between jobs. That's why most taxi drivers are carrying a few extra pounds. Time is money. The time taken charging up during the day to save 10 miles of petrol is more than offset by the loss of earnings.

    A PIP used as a private taxi will get one charge in the morning before the shift, due to the reason above. A fleet PIP taxi will barely get charged as it will generally be used on 2x 12 hour shifts in a day. The last driver will leave it right to the last minute before fuelling up for his partner and his partner won't want to receive his car a minute late. It is unlikely to be topped off during the day as you never know when your next job is going to be.

    Reality and idealism are two different things. I know the taxi reality.
     
  16. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    This would only work if taxi stands had charging stations (e.g. Airports or hotels), otherwise like GC says, there's no point waiting around 3 hours (in NA, 1.5hrs in Europe and parts of Asia) for 15 miles of charge that'll be used up for one trip to the airport.

    Here, the most popular taxi is still the Prius but catching up quite rapidly is the Prius v. It makes sense since it can carry more luggage and people comfortably. Even at 6.0L/100km (39mpg), it's saving them money over the V6 or V8 taxi they had before (plus savings in consumable parts like brake pads). There's no incentive to go PHV and in fact, the next step the taxi commission wants to go is full EV.