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2013 PRIUS 1.8L(A) Luxury,both Steering wheel & brake fail at the same time while on driving mode.

Discussion in 'Prius v Technical Discussion' started by MooiFah, Jan 20, 2015.

  1. MooiFah

    MooiFah New Member

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    Any one encountered this problem before? It happened to me while I was driving at a slow speed of 40-50km/hr because I just stopped to pay the toll on second Penang Bridge, journey from Kuala Lumpur to Penang which is about 35oKm in distance.

    All of a sudden, the steering wheel and brake lost control at the same time. The steering wheel at that time was very, very loose, just like a toy car and I immediately pressed the footbrake all the way down, but, the car still move and a constant speed, I tried press the "P" button but it's dead as well.

    Then, I overcome my fear and panic in the split second and realised that the brake and steering wheel of the car had failed, I let the car zigzag to the from the right hand side of the bridge to the left lane and press the second foot brake. The car jerked and stopped and all the orange light on the dash board started to flash / blink. The car came to a total stop. I was very lucky at that time about 2.00pm, the second (new) Penang bridge had only two other vehicles, which they managed to avoid and overtake my car.

    I sent my car to TOYOTA service centre in Penang and the technician there told me cannot replicate the problem and therefore the car is safe for driving.

    Questions?
    Is this the responsibilities of a car manufacturer that had to wait for a fatal accident to happen before a thorough check of the vehicle to be done?

    Any one of you experience a fail brake or steering wheel or both during driving mode?
     
  2. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    That is very rare. The steering is mechanical and if anything, it should be harder to steer (if the power steering failed) because you're not getting any assist. A loose steering implies it was mechanically disconnected from the wheels (or that somehow the electric motor went haywire and added more assist).

    The brakes are electronically controlled brakes (ECB) or brake-by-wire. However, there are hydraulic backups should the system fail. Again, it makes braking very hard and you have to press very hard (harder than you would ever press under normal circumstances) if the power brakes failed.

    It does seem odd to have both fail at the same time (I've never experienced it and it sounds very scary!). Did they scan for error codes? Maybe it can hint at what the gremlin is.
     
  3. rjparker

    rjparker Tu Humilde Sirviente

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    Also be aware to shutoff the engine in worse case scenarios requires pushing the Power button for about 4 seconds.

    If this was done by operator error or by a kid playing with the dash, then the car will shut off including power steering and regenerative braking. So the car becomes a lot harder to steer and brake but it should still do both but nowhere as easy. Using the supplemental parking brake was the right thing to do but it can cause loss of control at high speeds.

    So while an accidental shutdown scenario does not quite fit with the steering feeling like a "toy", it might have happened and maybe the adrenalin rush caused a little juggling of the sequence. Perry Mason proved this more than once.
     
    #3 rjparker, Jan 20, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2015
  4. PriusInParadise

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    Light, unresponsive steering together with unresponsive brakes that later cannot be reproduced suggest the vehicle was sliding. With a complete loss of traction, assistive systems such as VSC, ABS, TRAC would be ineffective.
    What were the weather conditions when this occurred? You state that this occurred on a bridge. What is the road surface: asphalt, concrete, or steel? Is it possible that there was a slippery spot on the roadway?
    The condition of your tires can have a major effect on traction. If they are worn, under or over inflated, that can result in unexpected handling.
    By the way, momentarily pressing "P" while driving over about 10km/h will have no effect, to prevent an inadvertent bump of the button from shifting you out of gear. Press and hold "P" for over two seconds and it will shift to Park if you are below about 10km/h, or neutral if over about 10km/h.
     
    #4 PriusInParadise, Jan 20, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2015
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  5. The Electric Me

    The Electric Me Go Speed Go!

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    Questions to The OP.


    Are you sure you didn't brake first, then notice the symptoms?
    What condition are your tires in?
    Could the surface of the bridge be different or considered slick? Or did you hit a slick spot?
    Did the VSC symbol illuminate?

    I've had similar braking incidents. Was told it was the VSC kicking in to maintain "control" by allowing slipping wheels to turn. NOT skid.
     
  6. MooiFah

    MooiFah New Member

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    Thank you for all your responses.

    I am not very technically competent on technical issues on my PRIUS. However, it just sounded like what I did for a living in the software industry by telling my clients that I can't replicate the problem and also I cannot find similar issue in my knowledge based, therefore you can continue to use the system and report to me again when the next occurrence happen again. Sound familiar?

    But having a first hand driving experiencing on both steering wheel & brake failed at the same time was something that really scary for me to drive the car again. What made it worst was that I was being told again and again by both the technician and the customer service agent that they can't replicate the problem and therefore the car is safe for driving. Being in the software industry myself, I know these are intermittences problems, it may happen again, but, don't know when??? Anyhow, I asked for a written report on what had been done, and if there is any error code, etc, I am still waiting for the written report after exactly 1 month and the car was still left in the Toyota service centre.

    Since this is a fully imported model from, Prius 2013, 1.8 A, Luxury. The mileage for the car is about 15,ooo km and I had bought the car for about 13 months since 1 Nov 2013. I am wondering if they have the necessary equipment's and competent staff in Malaysia to check for the error code, etc???

    It was a very hot afternoon at 2.00pm and the made of the bridge is concrete (I think) and driving in a S-curve two lane portion of the bridge ( you can Google for Penang Second Bridge specification). Driving speed at that point of time is about 40-50 KM/HR because I just exited from paying the toll. I was driving alone and just made a 30 minutes stop earlier at one of the rest area about 10 KM from the toll booth. Therefore, I was very alert when the incident happened. Other cars drivers spotted me in difficulties and calling for the Emergency Response Team to assist me immediately.

    I hope the car manufacturer can be more responsible to do a thorough check on the mechanical and electronic control of the vehicle rather than waiting for a fatal accident to happen before action being taken. Perhaps, I was fortunate that I was driving at a low speed. I wouldn't imagine the consequences if it had failed ten minutes later where my driving speed would be up to 80 -1oo km/hr. Should a fatal accident had happened, then, there's no one alive to tell the problem encountered.
     
  7. The Electric Me

    The Electric Me Go Speed Go!

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    Sounds like a very dangerous scenario.
    Where you live, I don't know what type of dealership or support options you may or may not have.

    Do you know if they ran a computer check and/or checked for error codes?
    Plus was a actual physical inspection done of both the steering and braking systems?

    At the very, very minimum you have a right to know what was done to your vehicle once brought in for this problem. And it should be more than just a tech trying to duplicate the symptoms.

    Makes me nervous about my two braking incidents. Which after having my vehicle checked out I was similarly told that it checked out and that it was safe to drive...but they couldn't duplicate the symptoms. My brake foot pedal also went all the way to the floor, and it felt very much like I simply lost most of my braking power. Again, what I was told was that it was the VSC kicking in, and working to keep the vehicle under control.

    In both my incidents, they did happen in winter, and in slick conditions. I guess I'm willing for now to accept that this is simply the normal action of the VSC when it feels the wheels slipping AND you are trying to brake.

    I don't think I had any steering issue. Although in both cases my focus was on trying to stop. And I would say my incidents were predicated by my braking first. So unlike your description, it wasn't just a matter of driving along, and then suddenly it happened.

    Best of luck...and please be very cautious. You deserve answers as to what happened.
     
  8. MooiFah

    MooiFah New Member

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    Thank you for your reply.

    I am still awaiting for an official written report, already 30 days, from Toyota Service Centre and Customer Service before I collect back my Prius from the Penang Toyota service centre, which is 350Km away from where I live.

    I really do not know what have been tested or done, the only thing the customer service agent told me was, They have brought the car to the same spot, ie, Penang second bridge and try to replicate the incident. Which I really have no comments to that type of answer given; even though I am not an electrical or motor vehicle engineer.

    The condition of the car: It is only one year old with a total mileage of 15,000KMand was just send to Toyota 3rd Service at 13,000Km about a month earlier prior to the incident. Tyre should be still in good condition where a full inspection has been done during the service.

    I owned a Toyota Vios since 2003 and was quite happy with the same Toyota Service centre who service my car for the past 11 years.

    I will share the report to you all once I have received it.

    MooiFah, Petaling Jaya, Malaysia
     
    #8 MooiFah, Jan 21, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 23, 2015
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  9. mikefocke

    mikefocke Prius v Three 2012, Avalon 2011

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    Your service center may be very good at routine maintenance. But throw in a hybrid and an event like you described and they may not have the experience to diagnose it.
     
  10. GT4Prius

    GT4Prius Active Member

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    Yes, I have experienced this before, and it is NOT a fault with the car.

    You experienced a SKID! The orange flashing light is the SKID WARNING LIGHT. Suggest you check this out in your user manual.

    I note your comment that you are not very technically competent with the Prius, but IMHO it is any owner's responsibility to be aware of what the warning lights mean, when you first start driving the car, and especially after the warning light has operated to warn you of something.

    Sometimes road surfaces behave unpredictably, if tar is soft in hot weather (and concrete roads may still have tar at the joints of the concrete surfaces), or if there has been some sort of leak or spillage of a slippery substance such as oil. Motor cyclists are especially vulnerable to this risk, and fatal accidents have resulted.
     
  11. GT4Prius

    GT4Prius Active Member

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    P.S. Never press the P button while the vehicle is moving. It cannot engage the parking brake, as this is not designed to stop a moving vehicle. All it will do is put the vehicle's transmission into Neutral, so you will actually eliminate any braking force that the car transmission and regenerative braking system can provide.
     
  12. The Electric Me

    The Electric Me Go Speed Go!

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    First of all, I never said it WAS a fault with the car, nor can I be sure that the OP's experience and mine were the same, even though the braking experience was similar.

    Secondly, while you are so cavalierly telling the OP who had a dangerous scenario happen, including losing steering, that the experience is NOT a fault with the car and to check out the owners manual, I suggest you do this yourself, as IN this very same manual you would learn that Toyota refers to the symbol in question as The SLIP INDICATOR...not a skid warning light. This light indicates in conjunction with the activation of the Vehicle Stability Control.

    In my case, which again may NOT be the same as the OP's, what the Toyota Service Department told me after supposedly checking "everything", was that it is indeed the Vehicle Stability Control working "per normal" when it senses the wheels slipping.

    IMO...my opinion.....if this is so? The Prius has a way overly aggressive VSC system. To "control" a skid, the system evidently overrides braking power. What you end up with? Is the brake pedal all the way to the floor, and the vehicle very orderly, and without skidding, continuing to move forward. I personally would like a little skid in that situation. The two times it has happened to me? One time resulted in a very slow rear end collision, and the second time a white knuckle swerve to avoid situation not too unlike the OP's.

    I still question if this is "normal". To me there should be NO situation, with any system activated that results in the brake pedal being all the way to the floor, and seemingly no braking power available. ( No I did NOT pump the brakes).

    But also like the OP, I'm getting the "We can't duplicate" the symptoms reply. It does seem to take a very specific but possible scenario for this to happen. Which means primarily you need a surface that is slick, and a need to suddenly brake.

    To be honest? I'm willing to accept that it is the VSC, and simply how it works. I've also come to the conclusion that with The Prius, mild winter or otherwise- I need snow tires every winter, because evidently with The Prius traction and how it plays with the whole braking system is especially paramount, given that I think the VSC has a "flaw" in how it can react. --I very much don't like this aspect of The Prius.

    Especially in the case of the OP, who evidently had a loss of braking power and steering simultaneously, I think it dangerous to post that you KNOW it's normal.

    When this happened to me? Normal or not I felt I needed to have it checked out. In the case of the OP who may have an even more serious problem? I would never sight unseen suggest the operation is "normal". What the OP describes is far from any normal or safe operating standard.

    I've been associated and active within Prius Chat for numerous years. I know that whenever anyone posts a "problem" as Prius owners and supporters the baseline reaction is often defensive...as in "You don't have a problem". However in this case?

    I would urge the OP to continue in trying to reach a more conclusive diagnosis as to what happened, as described I think that vehicle behavior is in no way "Normal" or acceptable.
     
  13. MooiFah

    MooiFah New Member

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  14. MooiFah

    MooiFah New Member

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    Let me recalled what exactly had happened and if the manufacture told me the PRIUS is as designed in this normal driving environment, I would rather not to drive the PRIUS or owned a Toyota car ever again...

    After I exited from the toll booth, I was on the right lane in a two lane bridge. I wanted to change to the left lane (as my country follow the right hand drive system) since I didn't intend to speed (40-50km/hr) until I reached the straight path of the bridge, as a responsible driver, I should move to the left lane so that other vehicle can use the right lane with a higher speed.

    I first noticed my steering wheel was very light and unresponsive when I tried to steer to the left lane (change lane), then my immediate auto-response was to press the brake to try to slow down the car but there was no response from the brake and the car was still moving at a constant, then, I tried to press the brake hard all the way down the second time, it was also still moving. It was very scary and felt like hell at that moment...

    In a split second, I realised both the steering wheel and brake not functioning, I let the car slid from the right side of a two lanes road to the left side ( at that spot, the bridge surface is slightly tilt from the right to the left) and managed to press the second foot brake(hand brake) and brought the car to a complete stop before it hit the bridge embankment. As I mentioned earlier, I was fortunate that this incident happened at a low speed and there was only a few other vehicles using the bride at that time. I finally managed to stopped the car by using the second brake and with a jerk only.

    If you said it's a SKID, what is the cause of the skid? there was no sudden brake being applied, I just want to change from left lane to right lane so as not to inconvenience other road user. Why suddenly the steering became very loose and unresponsive? Can the car travelling off the road at 40-50km/hr?

    My first experience of a SKID was about 20 years ago, when I drove a Nissan at a speed of 60/km per hour, suddenly, I noticed a motorbike driving at high speed towards my car, I slumped on the brake and the car skidded (zig-zag) before it came to a complete stop and I heard a load noise between the tyre and the road and I could also saw on the road the mark of the tyre skidded. I mange to stopped my car in time to avoid a fatal accident but the motorbike still flung in front of my car after I had stopped and the biker only sustained some minor injuries.

    As usual, the written report supposed to be send to me promised by Toyota's two weeks ago, was again delayed. They told me verbally, this coming Monday. I am still waiting for the written report after more than 38 days.
     
  15. PriusInParadise

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    OP states: "I first noticed my steering wheel was very light and unresponsive..."
    Question for the OP: After this incident, did the vehicle drive straight when the steering wheel is centered?

    The steering linkage has a direct mechanical connection from the steering wheel to the tires. It is very unlikely that this connection disconnected and then reconnected itself. If the steering intermediate shaft disconnected from the steering column or the steering gear, it would likely remain disconnected, and be obviously loose. If the splines on either end of the shaft stripped, the shaft would remain loose.
    Power steering systems (on any car) can fail and make steering heavier or lighter, but you will always be able to steer the wheels.
    If the front wheels were sliding, the steering would become light, and turning the steering (and the front wheels) will not steer the car. The car would follow the slope of the road. As you state, the road tilts from right to left, and the car went from the right lane to the left lane.
    Sliding can occur due to poor traction, such as when the roadway is contaminated with oil, water, sand, leaves, etc... Sliding would not necessarily be accompanied by skid marks or screeching sounds.
    You state that this occurred on a bridge. Were there strong winds? A strong gust of wind may momentarily make your car light enough that it loses stability.

    A few more questions for the OP: When you pressed the brake pedal and the car did not slow down as expected, how did the brake pedal feel? Did the pedal travel much farther toward the floor, was is softer or firmer than usual? Was the brake pedal high and hard?
    After the incident, did the brake appear to operate normally?
     
    #15 PriusInParadise, Jan 29, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2015
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  16. GT4Prius

    GT4Prius Active Member

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    Apologies if TheElectricME found my reply cavalier. I was suggesting checking the user manual because Mooifah just refers to "all the orange lights" lighting up without saying which lights they were. Which lights they were seems an important piece of info to me.

    Thanks for the correction as to the name of the warning light. To me a slip and a skid are the same, but it is good to get our terms right.

    Mooifah - I already answered your question about why the car should skid, in my post, as has PriusinParadise.

    My understanding was that Mooifah was saying or assuming that it was a fault with the car - not necessarily you, TheElectricMe.

    I do think that PriusinParadise makes an extremely important point about the steering, which does seem to show conclusively that whatever happened to the steering could not have been the car's fault.

    Congrats too to PriusinParadise that his reply focusses on light rather than heat (metaphorically speaking), and apologies if I seemed impatient.

    This is clearly a very important matter, and just as any possible dangers posed by the car and its design must be taken seriously, incidents and concerns of this nature must be considered very carefully and on the basis of all the facts, before making assumptions that it must be the car that is at fault. Such assumptions, if incorrect, can inappropriately cause anxiety in owners and problems in the resale market. In this context, it is in my view premature for Mooifah to be posting "if the manufacture told me the PRIUS is as designed in this normal driving environment I would rather not to drive the PRIUS or owned a Toyota car ever again.."

    Whether or not this was a "normal driving environment" is a key question, and Mooifah is not willing to consider the possibility that there was an issue with the road surface, perhaps he could explain how the steering failed and then repaired itself?
     
    #16 GT4Prius, Jan 29, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2015
  17. rdgrimes

    rdgrimes Senior Member

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    I'm pretty sure that is an incorrect statement.
     
  18. GT4Prius

    GT4Prius Active Member

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    RDGrimes - I don't know what your evidence is for saying that PriusinParadise is incorrect about the steering, but I suggest you check your facts. The steering is electrically power-assisted - but entirely mechanical and directly connected between steering wheel and front wheels.
    It is definitely NOT fly-by-wire like the throttle and brakes.

    Here is a statement from the Toyota Newsroom, regarding a Prius steering recall some time ago:

    "Customer FAQs for Toyota Prius Electric Power Steering (EPS) Pinion Shaft Nut Recall

    The Electric Power Steering (EPS) system provides power assistance to reduce steering effort. It generates torque using a power steering motor and a reduction mechanism which are assembled in the steering gear box assembly."

    *EDIT* You can see a diagram of the Prius steering system at the following site:
    http://www.aa1car.com/library/steering_power_electric.htm
    Note: I don't mean the one at the top of the page which is for a Chevy - the Prius one is further down.
     
    #18 GT4Prius, Jan 29, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2015