After Cornering Tesla, BMW Is Going For The Kill

can you buy a kia here?

 

Kia Soul Ev is California Only for now, but Kia is working on making it available in other states.

 

Tesla used aluminum for the major parts of its body and chassis.

The reason that carbon fiber, used by BMW in their electric cars, is that carbon fiber is ultra expensive. It's the hand labor involved in laying it up and moulding the parts.

Aluminum, while harder to form and finish, is much easier and cost effective than carbon fiber.

Nissan has been very successful with a steel body in the Leaf. The Chevrolet Bolt will, again, use steel.

 

Nissan started using more aluminum. As an example, the door panels that were originally steel are now aluminum.

 

Along with giving them a plugin for California, the i3 was for BMW to showcase the production improvements they have made with carbon fiber. Still too pricy for a mainstream car, BMW reports the i3 production time is half that of the 3 series.

 

No, I don't believe that any of the electric BMW's are anything but a compliance novelty.

I live eight miles from BMW USA headquarters. I have NOT seen one I3 on the road.

 

I have, although not many, and I live in Minnesota
The i3 is definitely more than just a compliance vehicle.

 

I've seen an i3 at Costco a couple of times. Looks better in person. Seen more Model S's though.
Think BMW still needs to get the CF costs down for profitability.

 

i saw an i3 at whole foods once.

 

So Tesla won't be profitable until about 2020. It sold 30,000 cars in 2014.
BMW is profitable to the tune of about $11 BILLION a year. It sold 1.8 MILLION cars in 2014.

And should Apple be interested: BMW costs only $64 BILLION to buy. That is much less than the $75 BILLION someone is trying to sucker Apple into buying Tesla for.

 

Whole means with a lot of carbon fibre?

 

The tesla roadster was carbon fiber body on aluminum frame.
Cut From A Different Cloth | Tesla Motors

BMW has reduced the cost of the CFRP further and considers it a key strategic technology. When the roadster came out it was one of the least expensive carbon fiber car. The i3 takes that today. BMW hopes one day CFRP costs will come down close to aluminum.

Aluminum machining costs have come down and tesla needs to use instead of invent new materials technology. Aluminums unibody lower cost was obvious for the model S, its is a sports sedan after all not a sports car. The quiet of unibody was probably a consideration. The model 3 will use even lower cost steel for its unibody, but we may see some aluminum or cfrp parts added as the prius has done to lower weight.

If BMW or anyone else is sucessful at lowering costs enough, crfp on steel or aluminum frames may become the norm for cars costing more than $30K.

Yes in the i3 it is used to push and lower cost of the technology.
BMW invests in carbon fiber for use beyond i and M models
Think of it this way, putting cf as the hood, steering wheel, trunk or hatch lid, roof, can significanly drop cg for better handling. On problem with cfrp is insurance costs, but a cf roof that protects in roll over better might reduce instead of increase insurance costs.

 

I'm still not sold on carbon fiber. It is NOT environmentally friendly as some would aver.

The matrix might be carbon finer weave, but the ground mass or resin holding it together is polyester or epoxy.

While polyester is highly recyclable like PET water bottles, epoxies contain a lot of nasty carcinogenic hydrocarbons.

Carbon fiber panels repair like fiberglass. Carbon fiber replacement parts are likely to be very expensive.

There is no magic to carbon fiber. It uses the same technology as fiberglass with a lot of hype.

Separate frame and body panel construction has always ben more expensive tan uni-body.

The future ha to be combination for aluminum or steel uni-bodies and aluminum sub frames, Audi, BMW and most other high end sedans already use this combination with good results.

 

No carbon fiber isn't environmentally friendly. The fibers themselves are essentially charred plastic string. It is possible to recycle them. Just not as easily as steel. Aluminum used in cars isn't as easily recycled as beer cans also. It was common practice to use steel rivets to connect aluminum pieces that have to be removed before recycling. Better techniques have come along, so going forward rivets may no longer be needed, and better techniques may come about for carbon fiber.

There is no magic to CF; it is stronger fiberglass that is lighter than steel. Reducing weight is the most basic way of improving performance for most cars. CF is just another tool to do so with its own set of advantages and disadvantages.

 

Anyone who has prepared and painted aluminum knows how difficult it is compared to steel.

Aluminum rivets can be used; just more of them are needed to do the same job. The problem to recycling is NOT the steel rivets but the epoxy or silicone adhesives used to bond the parts together. Adhesives have been used in aluminum aircraft construction since the days of the DE Havilland Comet.

The rivets in cars need not be squeezed like solid aircraft rivets. Blind "Pop" rivets are generally used.

When frames and components are shredded, steel is easily removed with electromagnets.

 

Don't know about South Carolina - but I see 'em every day because;
1 Neighbors got one
2) Co-worker has one
3) Dealership to the south has several on the lot
4) Nearby SAE QC will have one if/when I drive by (it's near our home depot) periodically
5) One of the MD's at the local hospital where my wife gets treatments has one

what is it - something like 1/2 of all plugin's are purchased in CA . . . . . . . . just sayin' . . . . .

 

It's very common for individuals to extrapolate their individual situation to parts beyond his or her known geographical area.

The Southern California market is NOT a representative sample of other geographical areas and especially NOT the Rest of the US or even the world.

 

Learn something new...

In addition to painting, will the aluminum parts be more expensive repair? The light weight, high strength steel now becoming more commonly used is because it requires more powerful equipment to fix.

GM did patent a better spot welding tip for aluminum a couple years ago, and it sounds like it is reaching production lines. Perhaps they can move away from the adhesives for their cars.

On the other hand, quiet steel may start going into cars to reduce cabin noise. It's a sound dampening material sandwiched between two sheets of steel. It may be lighter than traditional sound barriers, and save on production time and costs, but have will you recycle that?

I was going to say it is a poor example to use in support of a plugin not being a compliance car.

The i3 is available nationwide and in Europe, where BEV demand tends to be lower by accounts. So I say it is more than just a compliance vehicle. I don't think they are near Nissan's, Tesla's, or maybe even GM's dedication to BEVs, but BMW is showing far more support than Fiat.

 

If you want a good idea on the new aluminum and carbon fibre technology, you should watch the Science Channel and Velocity Channel's How it's Made Dream Car series.

Aluminum is best used with adhesives. Spot welding joints are stress risers. A bonded joint spreads the stress over a wide area and is protected from corrosion by the adhesive which acts as an environmental barrier. Bonding aluminum with adhesives is a time tested lightweight method.
The rivets basically keep everything in alignment during assembly. Typically. the assembly is baked in an oven at about 250 degrees Fahrenheit for about 20 minutes after assembly to quickly cure the adhesive.

They had a segment on the repair of carbon fiber structures on the Lamborghini Aventador. It requires a specially trained technician to be flown in to a local dealership to perform the operation.

Personally, I do NOT see carbon fiber ever going mainstream use for anything but premium and specialty cars.

 

Do steel structures that are spot welded also use adhesives?

The reason for GM's new spot welder is that aluminum welds fail QC something like 3 times more often than steel. The coating of Al oxide interferes with the welding process. In a 'why didn't we think of it before', the new welder tip has ridges that scratch up the oxide to expose pure metal before the juice is applied.

In regards to carbon fiber repair, I think it is an issue of there not being enough demand to support professional repair techs. There are kits and materials available for DIY repair to carbon frames of bicycles and other products. It is the same basic techniques as working with fiberglass. The vacuum pumps and equipment to suck out the air from the resin for stronger repairs aren't priced for someone looking to fix a single part. You just end up with a bulkier repair in that case.

An owner of a six figure car is going to want the repair to be 'as new', and that will take a bit more skill. Repairs to structural parts should use be flawless. In all likely hood, the structural parts will be replaced, and considering the forces to break the CF, a metal part will likely be beyond the fix point to replace anyway.

It all comes down if BMW, Audi, and others can get the costs down enough for carbon fiber, and then it will likely remain in the higher end segments for some time. Cars are still mostly steel at this point.