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70-75% efficient solar powered natural gas to hydrogen production

Discussion in 'Fuel Cell Vehicles' started by usbseawolf2000, Mar 18, 2015.

  1. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    70% efficiency was achieved last year. 75% expected this year. It has room to achieve 80%.

    It would cost less than $2 per kg to produce hydrogen.

    Emission to produce a kg of H2 is 5.5 kg of CO2. If Mirai can go 70 miles with a kg of H2, well-to-wheel GHG emission is 79 gram/mi. In comparison, a 50 MPG Prius emits 222 gram/mi.

    This is exciting development within reach of mass production.

    Highly Efficient Solar Thermochemical Reaction Systems | Department of Energy
     
  2. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    Solar-to-Chemical Energy Conversion Efficiency is defined as the ratio of the increase in the Higher Heating Value (HHV) in the reacting stream to the direct (non-diffuse) solar energy that is incident upon the parabolic dish concentrator.

    (From your link)

    I don't know how much energy is used to push the reaction, compared to how much is in the starting reactants.
    However,

    Molecular Weights
    H2 - 2
    CH4 - 16
    CO2 - 44

    Specific Energy
    H2 - 141.86 MJ/Kg
    CH4 - 53.60 MJ/Kg
    Stoichiometry: CH4 + O2 -<> CO2 + 2 H2

    So even before we consider the energy input conversion losses,
    16 kg of methane (CH4), equal to 16*53.60 MJ,
    becomes 4 kg of H2, equal to 4*141.86 MJ

    CH4: 16*53.60 = 857.6 MJ
    H2: 4*141.86 = 567.44 MJ
     
  3. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    More calcs:
    PV + water + NG -> CO2 + H2
    Looks like this:
    CH4 + 2 H2O -> CO2 + 4 H2

    So 16 Kg of methane results in 8 Kg of H2
    The authors say that the reacting stream gains about 30% heat value, and that this amount is 70% of the PV input. That implies that the PV input is 0.3/0.7 = ~ 0.43x of the starting heat value.

    If I am getting this right, then in units MJ
    16 kg of methane + PV = 16*53.6 + 16*53.6*0.43 MJ results in 8*141.86 MJ of H2

    16*53.6+16*53.6*0.43 = 1226.368 MJ
    8*141.86 = 1134.88 MJ
    Then the conversion efficiency from methane to H2 is 1135/1226 = 92.6%

    That sounds quite good but remember that we are starting from PV supplied electricity that does not have a carbon footprint (or at least we ignore it.) However, the conversion loss about equals transmission losses in a grid, and the fuel cell is no where near as efficient as a (battery+motor). So to me the moral is: use the PV as electricity for immediate end use or battery charging if you can, and store it as hydrogen if you cannot.

    There is an element of point of view in this analysis by the authors. They view NG as the fuel celebre and want to use it efficiently. I view PV and wind as the fuel celebre, and want to increase its utility to the grid.
     
    #3 SageBrush, Mar 18, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2015
    usbseawolf2000 and Zythryn like this.
  4. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    I don't either, but it does require steam. In typical steam reformation of natural gas, the heat to make the steam comes from burning the NG or H2. This is replacing those fuels with concentrated solar.

    Besides the hydrogen production, there was some other applications in the presentation. The methanol from NG would the same type of efficiency boost as hydrogen production. The turbine power production claims to lower carbon emissions; I just don't see how.

    Being a wet blanket, the <$2 GGE for hydrogen is sans pressurizing and transport, and it is still just a switch to another fossil fuel.
    It isn't PV, but concentrated solar heat. Magnifying glass and ants.
     
  5. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    20% input is from solar energy. I will post a link later.
     
  6. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    Indeed ?
    That certainly improves the NG case.

    I'll do the arithmetic later.
     
  7. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    Indeed. 20% solar input reduces 50% emission. Synergy must be in action in this production.
     
  8. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    I was thinking more in terms of turning 70% of solar heat into "hydrogen" rather than ~ 40% into electricity.
     
  9. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    Net Reaction:
    CH4 + 2H2O --> CO2 + 4H2

    I am having trouble grasping why this is better than conventional steam methane reforming (reaction above) which already makes a whole lot of H2 without too much CO2 yield. But those are huge plants with a lot of heat integration (energy recovery). But maybe this new idea fits in as smaller plant. Lots of times you may have a smaller methane stream (eg; flare gas) but there really is no mini-plant technology capable of making methanol or H2 from that.
     
  10. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    True, a large plant can employ plenty of tricks to recover heat.
    This maybe useful stations with onsite reformation. Though the parabolic dish can make site location problematic.
     
  11. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    You can watch the webinar and also read the text of it. It goes over more detail that what's on the slides.

    Webinar: Highly Efficient Solar Thermochemical Reaction Systems | Department of Energy

    This approach allows conversion of solar energy into hydrogen very efficiently (along with NG -> H2), whereas convention SMR just reforms NG into hydrogen.

    Conventional approach to convert solar to H2 is through PV electricity and electrolysis to get hydrogen at very low efficiency.

    So, those fool cell critics need to rethink and redo their calculation since there is a better path from solar to H2.
     
    #11 usbseawolf2000, Mar 19, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2015
  12. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    Take #2 ..

    To recap from above,
    16 Kg of methane + heat results in 8 Kg of H2
    The authors say that the reacting stream gains about 30% heat value, and that this amount is 70% of the heat input. That implies that the heat input is 0.3/0.7 = ~ 0.43x of the starting heat value of the methane

    If I am getting this right, then in MJ units
    16 kg of methane + heat = 16*53.6 + 16*53.6*0.43 MJ results in 8*141.86 MJ of H2

    16*53.6+16*53.6*0.43 = 1226.368 MJ
    8*141.86 = 1134.88 MJ


    Comparison:
    • Methane combusted to electricity at 40 - 60% efficiency
    • CSP + turbine that makes electricity. 28% conversion efficiency to electricity presumed
    Versus
    • CSP + Methane to make hydrogen

    Arithmetic for use of fuels without hydrogen pathway"
    • We start with 16*53.6*0.4, up to 16*53.6*0.6 MJ electricity from methane = 343 – 515 MJ
    • 16*53.6*0.43*0.28 electricity from the CSP = 103 MJ
    so depending on how efficient the NG power plant is we end up with 446 – 618 MJ of electricity
    OR 1134.88 MJ of hydrogen

    The break-even point for a hydrogen fuel cell in terms of efficiency (and carbon intensity) then is
    446/1138 = 39% if compared to a 40% efficient NG power plant
    644/1128 = 55% if compared to a 60% efficient NG power plant
     
    #12 SageBrush, Mar 19, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2015
  13. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    ^^ This all sounds quite comparable for hydrogen Vs NG combustion if we ignore costs, but I feel compelled to point out that the comparison is somewhat contrived because we are presuming the CSP exists and can be either used for hydrogen or electricity productions. More likely, the heat for the hydrogen conversion is coming from combustion, and a PV field rather than CSP is making electricity.
     
    #13 SageBrush, Mar 19, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2015