Mirai production begins @ 3/day

Hi there,

Hybrid Life is a new french forum and during the Geneva Motor show 2015, we made an interview with Hirose Katsuhiko (Toyota), father of Mirai. I thought it could interest you (I am very a long time reader of PriusChat) :

Sorry for our english, this is not our native language but it was mainly our first interview ! There are EN subtitles embedded if needed.

If you like it, please retweet us : Interview of Hirose Katsuhiko at Geneva Motor Show 2015 - Vidéo Dailymotion

Here are detailed pictures of the general appearance of the Mirai at Geneva Motor Show 2015 taken by Hortevin (Hybrid Life founder)
[Berline Familiale] - Impression statique de Toyota Mirai: les photos de détails | Hybrid Life : Forum Automobile Hybride

Thank you for this great forum that inspired us

Parker, Hybrid Life : Forum Automobile Hybride administrator

 

Haven't followed thread, but whatdoya'll think of Toyota's site promotion of Mirai?

Toyota Mirai – The Turning Point

 

Pretty. Lacks some of the details those here know about.
It does drop the 3 minute refuel claim to 5 minutes. Allow for older stations, warmer California climate, or likely just rounding.

 

Some california stations are going to take a lot longer than 5 minutes, and only 1 right now has the equipment to sell hydrogen. That station can only store 69kg, and it takes about 24 minutes to make each additional kg. All these things can be fixed with money for new equipment, and california taxpayers will be spending about $220M to try to get 100 stations built and selling on top of the doe money. For that money I bet they do get 56 stations that can do a 3 minute 5kg fill built and operating in 2017. They have a lot of work to do this year and next though, and the prime contractor has no experience building this stuff, so expect some set backs on the way.

 

Central H2 pipeline has to be laid only once. Do it once and do it right.

Unlike EV chargers, H2 pump can charge at 3,000 kW (3 gigawatts). Deploying slower EV chargers at lower cost would be obsolete soon.

 

And how easy would it be to park a car bomb above it?

If you're a terrorist it would make sense to take out the one main pipeline that provides most automotive fuel. Sure they could do that now with oil pipelines, but they're just messy. A hydrogen line would go BANG.

 

I'm not quite sure what you mean here. No one is seriously really considering the trillions of dollars it would take to build hydrogen pipelines everywhere. You may cover the LA area, Tokyo, and Houston to baton rouge for billions of dollars but these things cost large amounts of money away from existing pipelines. NREL is talking about building a $2M reformer at larger stations, perhaps electroysis at smaller remote stations, with liquid hydrogen trucks seriving stations without reformers and electrolysis. Califonia failed at its first attempt on a 100 station test, its try 2, and AFAIK no plans for pipelines out more than a mile or 2 from an existing one. Estimates are a 200 mile pipeline would have to charge about $2/kg of hydrogen pumped, or pipeline charges equalling production costs in a distributed SMR model. That is why production is over very short pipelines.

 

NREL relaxed its future assumption in the US from 50% to 15% of light vehicles. Heavy vehicles would require liquid hydrogen for distance which doesn't make much sense. Say LA got 20% on hydrogen, a terrorist might blow it up, but outside dubai we won't see emergency vehicles running on the stuff. Hybrid + diesel + plug-in penetration in the US is under 5%, it is doubtful LA could get to 20% hydrogen anytime fast. I'd be more worried about earthquakes and mudslides in california than terrorists hitting a hydrogen pipeline. Lots of easier targets there.

 

Depending on the outside conditions, the SAE standard look up table for a type A pump(-40C pre-cooling) that meets the 3 minute refuel time, can take 7 minutes or more.

The same could be said of the H2 pumps. California is building for 70MPa. Japan is building for 82MPa. Hydride storage requires low pressure, but likely different filling and communication standards. I don't know if these pumps could also handle natural gas if on board reformation comes to market. Methanol would require a completely different set of pumps.

 

What's the source of that information?

 

Google Translate

"On the other hand for hydrogen stations installed and used from 2004 on, it is possible to raise the maximum supply pressure to 82MPa by reviewing regulations. This increases the amount of hydrogen that can be filled, cruising distance is a translation that extends up to about 700km. Current status of approval pressure in Europe is as high as 87.5MPa, but hydrogen tank of MIRAI is adapted to such regulation value."

Apparerntly, Europe has okayed pressures up to 87.5MPa.

 

Communication should be standard. Probably more rows in the look up table. No reason to invent new standard to squeeze in 0.25 kg.

The same pump head. The longer it charges, the higher pressure in the tank.

 

Standards and regulations aren't necessarily the same thing, but it is a Google translation of a Japanese article.

 

It might be that 82 MPa when cooled down, would end up at 70 MPa.

Non-communicated station just know the tank pressure and would stop once that's reached. That results in about 90% full.

Communicated station would also know about the temp and other parameters to better reach the full tank. This approach is said to be able to recharge higher than 98% full.

 

I don't think hydrogen explodes. It escape and the flame shoots directly up because it is lighter than air.

There is a video comparing gas and hydrogen car on fire.

 

You don't remember the hydrogen explosions at the Fukushima nuclear site 4 years ago?

 

+1

heh heh. It will be especially dangerous in parking garages where it can get trapped and people smoke.

But its not like this is a technical problem that can't be solved. Its probably fairly simple to add more sensors and an alarm for leaking hydrogen. The big problems are the cost of the hydrogen, the cost of those tanks, and the cost of the fuel cells. All need some major technical breakthroughs to go down.

 

Natural gas and gasoline explodes too. Battery brings down airplanes, etc.

Why don't we instead of focus on safety and what is done to achieve it?

 

The refueling standard allows for some pressure over 70MPa to compensate for expansion from the heat of filling, but not that high. Besides, the release stats on the Mirai list the tank as rated at 87 or so MPa, and in some releases Toyota speaks of an increased range under newer regulations. That was actually the topic of the article I linked. There is a regulatory review planned for 2016. If that allows the 82MPa tank pressure on the street, the Mirai's JC08 range will go from 650km to 700km.

Natural gas will do basically the same thing. Unless you get a gas and air mixture within a contained space. Same will happen with hydrogen or gasoline vapors.