Why Can't Other Plug-In Hybrids Copy Chevy Volt's All-Electric Running?

I think it is perfectly fair that the PiP get some incentive as well, with that dirty gas engine and all.

 

In my particular case I found out late at night, car rental places would have been closed, that's where my day delay came from. I made it up there to see my dad and he died within a couple hours after I got there. I would not hesitate to rent a car to go see family, especially in an emergency, the plain and simple fact is renting a car takes longer and is an inconvenience in an emergency situation, so if I can avoid that if at all possible, I will. On long trips that are planned for, renting is fine, when time is against you however, renting isn't so good.

My misunderstanding then. I am single and don't have need for a huge car to haul family in, nor do I want the added maintenance, registration, and insurance costs for a second car. I want a smaller car, all I need is a seat for me, eventually one other person and some camping gear/misc hobby items.

I have chosen the Volt because it fits all my needs, has room for the future, and also let's me run all of my day to day miles on cheaper electric while still keeping the ability to get in my car and go if and when it's needed. There isn't a single other car on the market I know of that lets me do that for the price of the Volt. If there is please let me know so I can check it out.

 

How much do you pay for electricity?

Depends on your commute distance. Ford Energi may make sense for you but it is bigger that you don't need now but for the future.

 

My utility has $0.03/kwh overnight rates so that's when my charging will be done. My work commute distance is less than a mile one way, however getting to in-state family and friends for the weekends is about 20 miles away (40 mile round trip). And getting to grocery stores and such is about 10 miles one way. The 50 mile range of the 2016 Volt seems tailor made for my longest weekend commutes and covers my busiest errand running days.

As for the Ford Energi, the last time I inquired about it I was told by my nearest dealer that it wasn't sold in Indiana, so I didn't look into it very far, and the electric range didn't fit with my weekend drives like the Volt did. I may look into it again, see if it is sold in my area now.

Edit: looking at the Energi now and that trunk ... I would have to see it in person but that floor shape may not work for my camping gear.

 

PiP should get less as it isn't as clean as Mirai.

It can be cleaner than Leaf in some states so it is debatable if it should get as much as Leaf. On one hand, PiP should get less because it still has a gas engine, but the cleanest that set the standard.

That's very low as national average now is 12 cents. Does it include delivery charge and taxes/fees?

Unless you live near a hydroelectric state, that cheap electricity isn't going to be clean.

When I got my PiP, I looked for things closer to home. It totally changed the way I view things prior and it was like opening another dimension in my mind.

 

I'm pretty sure there aren't cleaner gas engines under the hood of a PHEV.

 

Trust me they make up for it on day time rates. The whole set up is to try and move people to using electricity on off peek hours, there is an 8 hour window of super cheap night time electricity, then they jack up the price during the rest of the day. Made a lot of business owners mad when they did that of course. As for shopping I could shop closer, there is a place to go, but it's a lot more expensive than the place 10 miles down the road and everything else, my hobby shops, barber shops, and most of our restaurants are all down there, so I generally make it one big round trip to get all my stuff done at once each week.

 

+1

No the engines don't get cleaner when going in a phev than a hybrid, but any hybrid can run its engine cleaner than a non-hybrid as it can use electricity instead of running it in its highest emissions phase.

A erev style phev will reduce engine emissions more than a hybrid, becuase it can avoid many start ups, which are the most polluting times. A 35 mile erev looks like it will be off 62% of the time in an american driving pattern (on-star reporting of entire fleet), european or japanese driving cycles should run the engine even a lower percentage of the time. GM says from this data the gen II 50 mile erev should only run on 3% of the trips. The bmw i3 rex will likely run even less. That will be an extremely low pollution profile.

Still all 4 cylinder or lower count hybrid cars are extremely low in unhealthy pollutants whether they are a plug-in or not. I think a prius or camry hybrid really is not going to make the air much worse than even a gen II volt

We have the ghg component too of these hybrids and plug-in hybrids. Here charging source matters, but where the phevs are sold as a collection looks to be lower in ghg than the prius liftback which is extremely low.

The gas engine in its hybrid cycle is extremely clean in the prius or camry family of hybrids(Lexus ESh, avalon hybrid, camry hybrid).

The term dirty seems strange when a modern hybrid pumps out less than 10% of the unhealthy pollution of the average 2000 my car.

Of course where this came from was the incentives, and the incentives are there to drive technology. A blended phev may require a different type of battery than an erev type phev. That is why the incentives are technology neutral. Panasonic in their large pack venture with tesla, uses very inexpensive cells, but reqires liquid conditioning and better control electronics. Over a larger pack the trade offs make this currently the least expensive pack, but in a small battery blended phev the added hardware currently makes it more expensive. Lg uses larger and more expensive cells for the batteries it sells to hyundai and gm. These require less electronics than tesla but still require liquid conditioning. For the panasonic cells in the prius phv and ford energis, the cells are even more expensive but don't require liquid conditioning. All 3 types of cells are driving cost, size, and weight down, but its too early to pick long term winners and losers.

 

He meant, no PHEV has cleaner gas engine than the one under PiP hood. 50 MPG gas engine is as clean as 100 MPGe EV.

 

Mpge has absolutely nothing to do with how "clean" the vehicle is.
Why do you insist on using this tortured logic?

 

As I have said, the grid being too dirty is just an excuse. North Dakota's grid is 80% coal. The EPA's beyond tailpipe emission calculator has the PPI emitting less CO2 than the Corolla and Camry hybrid. A Leaf would result is less CO2 than the Corolla. That is using the US average for upstream gasoline emissions, not the increased ones for tar sand sourced gasoline that is likely a those gas stations.

If not selling the Prius PHV in some states was about GHG, why hasn't Toyota cancelled the non-hybrid Camries? The difference between the ICEV's and hybrid's CO2 emissions is ten times greater than between the PPI and Prius in North Dakota.

The plugin credit was never about reducing emissions, but just to support car size batteries until the industry was self sustaining. And it is working; battery prices have been steadily dropping while their performance has improved. Though not a direct beneficiary of the credits, hybrids and FCVs benefit from those battery improvements.

The hybrid incentives didn't lead to greater variety of hybrid models; they came after the credits expired. With $4 gallon gas, the existing hybrids of the time didn't really need tax payer help to get sold.

Because the primary emission of his concern is CO2, which is directly tied to fuel efficiency, and prefers to use the national average for grid mix.

 

Raise doubt, even though the topic has already been discussed in great detail many times.

How about finally addressing the goal of delivering a high-volume business-sustaining vehicle?

The true winner must satisfy a wide range of criteria.

 

And never answered.
As for your question, that has been answered over and over again.

The Volt, Leaf, Tesla and other EVs are all working that direction.
No, they haven't done it instantly. We should have a much better idea as to how successful they are in each one's market as the second gen comes out.

How long do you expect the Mirai to take to reach high quantity, middle market sales?

 

We already learned the consequences of wait-and-see... hence the "why" question of this topic... and the continued importance of "who".

 

So again, when do you expect the Mirai to be selling in quantity to the main stream buyer?

 

Off topic but.... Engineers thinks 10-15 years but executive said do it in half the time.

2020 is supposed to be the goal for the affordable model. It may be 2025. It will also depend more on how fast the refueling infrastructure is built.

 

+1

Yep, that was to get the cost down enough to sell in the tens of thousands. 15 years would be 2029 from when they said it, half that time would be 2022. Toyota in 2009 claimed it would be affordable by 2015, but by affordable they meant $50,000;-) I think this time they mean low enough to sell in the tens of thousands with subsidies. I don't think it will be challenging the prius in price.

The volt, leaf, tesla S, Mitsubishi outlander phev already sell in the tens of thousands. Again I don't think mainstream is a meaningful term, but if these 4 cars are not mainstream and toyota says they aren't, then it is doubtful that the engineers are promising mainstream in 15 years.

I know you aren't claiming mainstream then, I wonder what john is saying.

 

the volt is some sort of range extending hybrid. not really designed for mpg's after juice runs out. nothing wrong with that, but clearly, the author of the article has limited understanding of what he writes about.

 

Why put everything on Mirai's shoulder? Mirai, Clarity, Tucson FCV and others could be selling as many as well.

FCV has better chance of going mainstream due to the nature of refueling. Grid should be cleaner as well and so will EVs. The future is looking cleaner. I am not sure Volt will be in it due to the nature of it's design.

 

Simply using it as an example.

I am just trying to get a handle on when you expect the Mirai, or if you prefer, FCEVs as a group, to reach mainstream levels of quantity and price.

Are you giving it more, or less time time to reach those levels than the Prius/hybrids took?
Are you giving it more, or less time than the EVs?