Why Can't Other Plug-In Hybrids Copy Chevy Volt's All-Electric Running?

Hopefully the next Malibu will be as compelling as the new Impala as been. We should see it next month at the NY auto show.

 

saw the malibu, impala and cruze rentals in florida, all fairly attractive cars.

 

So far, GM is the only company to announce automotive permanent magnet motors using drastically reduced rare earth metals other than BMW. I don't know the percentage of rare earth metals achieved by BMW. I assume others will follow including Toyota (perhaps in the 4th gen hybrids).

Reducing rare earth metals by 30-50% through smarter PM magnet manufacturing is pretty well understood now but still novel in production motors. Completely eliminating rare earth metals like GM did in the smaller PM motor is harder and less well-understood and requires state-of-the-art innovations in motor geometries. GM's big reduction gives them a significant near-term cost advantage.

Yes, Toyota manufactures a lot more hybrid transmissions and likely has some economies of scale from that but GM should be able to match Ford's volume pretty quickly if they want to.

It's widely believed that GM's transmission is made in Japan and that it is either made by Toyota's Aisin subsidiary/partner or at least contains significant parts from them. People assume this based on the Volt's window sticker which says something like:

Point of origin: transmission: Japan

Actually, the original Volt's transmission is made at GM's Ramos Arizpe factory in Mexico. It's origin is labelled as Japan because the most expensive components in the transmission are the motors and power electronics which are made in Japan by Hitachi Automotive. There are no Aisin parts in the Volt transmission, as far as I know.

The 2016 Volt (and presumably the Malibu) transmissions will be made at GM's Warren Transmission plant in Michigan and the motors will be made at a Hitachi factory in the US (Kentucky, I recall offhand).

With its batteries also being made in the US (by LG Chem), the 2016 Volt should have a relatively high North American parts percentage.

The 2016 Malibu with the hybrid powertrain is a newly redesigned generation to be revealed soon at the New York Auto show.

My impression is that most or all Impala rentals are still the previous generation design. I think GM is only selling the new generation Impala (the one that got high praise from Consumer Reports) to retail consumers right now.

 

Hummmm,

The Rick Wagoner vehicles: Hits and misses - latimes
Wagoner has said the biggest mistake he ever made as chief executive was killing the EV1, GM's revolutionary electric car, and failing to direct more resources to hybrid gas-electric research. This admission is acutely painful for green-car advocates who know GM squandered its early lead in electric-hybrid technology.​

I wonder if we can find the GM manager in charge of the 1981 Chevette? I have some fine whiskey I'd like to share after I filter it with my kidneys.

Bob Wilson

 

of course, i have no way to know if they are rentals or not. just going by the quantity on the road vs around here.

 

Correct on the old Impala being made for fleet sales. I don't think it was a horrible car, just not inspiring enough to draw in the retail crowd.
The current Malibu is better than the old Impala. The specs have it less roomy than its competitors, which might leave the rear passengers a little cramped in leg room comparable to the Cruze. Which left it with poor sales compared to its main rivals, and outsold by the Cruze. The new Impala did quite well last year.

 

I have scores of statements confirming the contrary. But remember who didn't what to stir up old history?

It still comes down to traditional vehicles sales absolutely crushing the high-efficiency, low-emissions choices.

 

*Clap* Finally! This is something I can praise, if it gets close to 45 MPG in the real world.

This should shed light on how compromised Volt really is! John, your work paid off after all these years and never giving up.

Malibu hybrid is the reason why other PHEVs are not copying Volt's all electric running.

Well, not only others but GM is not copying either (not including Cadillac ELR clone). Where are bigger cars and SUVs with Voltec? Nope, not practical.

 

On that, we can agree on.
So, the question for you is, how do we change that?

I think GM, Nissan and Tesla are leading the charge in changing that, and thanks to them, efficient cars will break out of the 3-4% rut they have been in.

 

Are we forgetting that another HSD hybrid wasn't released here until after the second generation Prius had come out? The first fusion hybrid didn't arrive until five years after the Escape, and Ford still only has two hybrids. Honda just recently got back to three here, but the CRZ is getting an ICE version, so who knows how along the hybrid is destined for in the US. All the other brands are lingering around one. I think focusing on cost reduction versus model expansion is the better long term goal for the Voltec.

There is actually more pedestrian, by which I mean non luxury or high end sports car, BEVs available to some degree within the US than PHVs. All but the Volt were made off of a hybrid platform. As with designing a hybrid from an ICE car, that puts limits on what you can do. Mainly in terms of battery size to placement space loss. Except for the Prius, the other PHVs were also ICE to hybrids, so double whammy on putting a large enough pack for an all EREV. The other PHVs are power hybrids that make use of blended mode to get peak power out of the system, not for efficiency.

I don't know how GM coming out with a hybrid Malibu is reason for the others not making EREVs. Since the EPA calls the i3 REX a PHV, they could simply be waiting for battery prices to drop, and their engine stables to have the right model for a longer EV ranged EREVs. Most are working towards longer ranged BEVs, but they will always have recharge time issues for long trips. Then the CARB incentives for EREVs don't exist. An EREV won't get HOV stickers for longer than the other blended PHVs, and they don't get ZEV credits. BMW had to hobble the i3's hybrid mode in order to get an exception there.

 

Doesn't that require one really crazy long extension cord? (I could not help myself. Sorry.)

I'm facing a similar situation. I keep eyeing the 2016 Volt because the design is exactly what I need. The reputation of GM obtuseness in car quality is exactly what I don't need. So here is my quandary. Voting with my wallet will result in sending money to the company that is going in the direction I need or to the company going in the direction I don't need nor like. Am I really suppose to bend over backwards to go across the entire continent to get a vehicle (PiP)Toyota does not want to sell me and has declared to be low priority for Toyota's future? Or should I look at the company changing direction to exactly what works for me? (How many opinions would change if the Volt had a Toyota label?)

The better design is clear to me. The real issue is past failures of GM leadership vs. future failures of emerging Toyota leadership. At least let me know if a Volt works out for you.

 

if the volt works for you, and is sold in florida, what's the big deal? it has a stellar reputation. even if gm bails out on it down the road, what concern is that to you?

 

As much as I admire all the positive things that John has done over the last 15 years to promote hybrid technology, I doubt that he had any noticable influence over GMs decision making here. This is all driven by the CAFE regulations that are quickly ratcheting upwards after being allowed to stagnate for decades. The large car companies see the advantages of having full hybrid products helping them achieve their total product mix requirements.

Non sequitur. The 2016 Volt's EV MPGe will be as good as or better than most of the other 2016 PHEVs that I'm aware of. It will also have about as good a hybrid mpg or better compared with the other (mostly 20-25 mile EV range) PHEVs.

The exceptions are the Prius and Accord PHEVs which inherit the efficiency of their non-plugin siblings because they have such a small battery (and EV range) that there isn't much weight burden.

The EV MPGe exception is the BMW i3 which gets excellent EV efficiency from its unique motor design and the weight reduction from it's expensive aluminum and carbon fiber body.

The 2016 Volt provides over twice the EV range of the 20-25 mile PHEVs at about the same efficiency (or better) and at about the same price or less after credits and rebates.

Using the EPA fueleconomy.gov methodology, the 2016 Volt will get the equivalent of 65 mpg or so of gasoline carbon emissions equivalent in California where about 40% of Volt's are sold while using much less petroleum.

Here's a list of other 2015-2016 PHEVs:

2016 Audi A3 E-tron (EPA via NEDC)
21 miles EV range
~100 MPGe
~40 mpg

2015 BMW i3
72 miles EV range
117 MPGe
39 mpg

2015 BMW i8
15 miles EV range
76 MPGe
28 mpg

2015 Cadillac ELR
37 miles EV range
82 MPGe
33 mpg

2016 Chevrolet Volt
50 miles EV range
102 MPGe
41 mpg

2015 Ford Energi (C-MAX & Fusion)
19 miles EV range
88 MPGe
38 mpg

2015 Honda Accord
13 miles EV range
115 MPGe
46 mpg

2016 Hyundai Sonata (unofficial EPA)
22 miles EV range
93 MPGe
40 mpg

2016 Mercedes C350 (unofficial)
19 miles EV range
No mpg or MPGe estimate yet

2016 Mercedes S550 (unofficial)
20 miles EV range
? MPGe
26? mpg EPA (via NEDC)

2016 Porsche Cayenne
14 miles EV range
47 MPGe
22 mpg

2016 Porsche Panamera
16 miles EV range
50 MPGe
25 mpg

2015 Toyota Prius
11 miles EV range
95 MPGe
50 mpg

I'm not seeing a pattern of EREV or 2016 Volt efficiency inferiority there. But somehow, the Volt is a terrible design and hallelujah for hybrid Malibu!

I thought usbseawolf2000's VD had gotten better in recent months but he seems to have had a relapse. I guess Volt Derangement is hard to kick.

 

I appreciate the optimism:

Having tracked the numbers for nearly two years, my impression for the sales ceiling:

• cannibalism - former Prius/hybrid owners going plug-in, net-sum zero for efficient cars
• FUD - herd/tribal commitment to gasoline ICE cars, inhibits capture of ordinary car buyers

Plug-ins have been fairly recent since 2012, leaving the Prius/hybrids pretty much the only choice for efficient cars. When plug-ins became available, many previously frustrated buyers switched from Prius/hibrids. It looks like cannibalism of Prius/hybrids by the plug-ins. Although plug-ins are a small numbers compared to the total car market they are significant for the much smaller, Prius/hybrid market. Furthermore, the plug-in market is going through rapid changes.

We are seeing significant technology improvements across the board. The differences are of the same order as the 2001-03 Prius compared to the 2004-09. Our family started with a used, 03 Prius bought in 2005, augmented by a very early, 1.8L Prius in 2009 replacing our other ICE car. If in the future we need to replace a Prius, we'll probably jump to a Leaf (KISS) over a Volt and keep the 2010 Prius. Buying wasn't an attitude as much as when we needed cars to meet our requirements.

There are credible studies showing 30-40% of traditional ICE car owners would never buy either a Prius/hybrid or plug-in. Although price-performance certainly applies (aka., hybrid premium,) there is still a lot of FUD even if out of politeness (or confrontation avoidance) our co-workers won't tell us. This remains a tough nut to crack but critical if we're going to maintain a 3% take rate or see it erode (what I'm seeing.)

Bob Wilson

 

That all boils down to the new GM leadership post bankruptcy, so far they've increased the build quality and design of the new cars they have put on the lots, the new impala for example. According to reports they are refocusing their engineering department on 100% R&D, whereas before 25% of their engineering resources went to cost reduction of already on sale models, and pushing the lessons they learn from designing one car into every other car afterwards. They have also created several jobs on the production lines to assess and catch quality problems during production, whereas the old management simply inspected the cars after they were already built and sitting in the staging lots. They have also stepped up their relationships with suppliers, basically working with them instead of screwing them without going into too much detail.

These changes along with the commitment to the Gen 2 Volt and the recent Bolt reveal, and the evidence that they are indeed following through with all the claims above shows in the Malibu hybrid announcement. They completely redesigned and rebuilt that car for a mid-cycle refresh, that shows me the new management is willing to make big changes when they need to, and big changes are certainly what's needed at GM. They have my attention and are gaining my confidence more and more. I will let you know how my Volt experience goes.

 

This new Malibu Hybrid is he have been asking GM to make, while pointing out flaws in the Volt. I don't think it matters if he influenced or not. The goal has been reached and what matters is he stood up for it. I am pretty sure you guys misread his intentions.

Assuming, the pricing for MH is going to be reasonable (Li-ion gonna cost more), it won't need any tax incentive to sell. It is a midsize that can sell many more than Volt. Therefore, cuts down more gasoline consumption. Hopefully, the exhaust and evaporation emissions are low, SULEV is the key.

GM is finally following Toyota's lead with EGR and EHR. Next is Ford's turn.

A compact car should be more efficient than a midsize. With Volt and Malibu Hybrid, it is reverse. There is a lot of compromises being made, just to drive in EV mode without using the gas engine.

The result of Volt is 46-47 MPG vehicle with wasted resources (and time - to charge it). Battery and electricity ought to be used more responsibly. I am pretty sure Volt will need more energy (and emit more) to manufacture than Malibu Hybrid, something many overlook.

 

Just curious as to what compromises you think are being made with the Volt to try and understand some of your logic.

 

- EV efficiency. Compare it to Bolt.
- HV efficiency. Should be ~50 MPG comparing to Malibu Hybrid
- Interior Space. 4+1 seats
- Cost. Big battery costs a lot, especially without incentives.

 

If you ever get a chance to go to a Tesla club gathering, I highly recommend it.
Yes, there are some plugin sales that would have gone to hybrids.
I think, however, that you underestimate the new customers that plugins are pulling in.
I've met a number of people who don't give a damn about efficiency, they just love the drive quality and acceleration.
This is what the electrics bring. People start driving more efficiently in spite of themselves.

While we can all agree California is not the same as the entire market, it is a significant part of it.
Tesla has been pulling in buyers from people that have never sat in a hybrid much less bought one.
Over at the Volt forums you can find lots of people that came from BMW 3 series and Lexus vehicles.

 

So...
You're expecting a car that's not designed to be a pure EV to be better than a pure EV...
You're expecting a car that's not designed to be a fuel sipping efficiency optimized hybrid to be better than a fuel sipping efficiency optimized hybrid...
You're expecting magical space expansion in a car the size of a compact (most of which also have 4+1 seats if not 4)
Cost I will agree with, it is on the expensive side.

Sounds to me like you need to stop trying to compare the Volt to something it's not and try and look at it on it's own merits.