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California drought

Discussion in 'Environmental Discussion' started by austingreen, Jun 5, 2015.

  1. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    I guess some affinity sites want to make the California drought the poster boy for catastrophic climate change. For those with an open mind you may want to read what the excellent scientists at NOAA have to say.


    Climate Program Office > Climate Programs > Modeling Analysis Predictions and Projections > MAPP Task Forces > Drought Task Force > California Drought


    Soon we should have the data available for November-April 2014/2015, and spoiler alert, those using different time periods have pegged this one as the lowest precipitation in the instrument record (1895-today), and I expect NOAA will announce this too once they have munched through the data. The drought is not over, so it could get much worse I hear in misanthropic cheer leading from the affinity sites.
    Most everyone agrees with NOAA on those facts. Some sites have problems with this part of the report.
    U.S. Palmer Drought Indices
    We have too measures of drought, rainfall shortfall (how much less rain fell compared to average for the period of the drought using the standard precipitation index (SPI). and Palmer drought severity index PDSI

    http://www.researchgate.net/profile/William_Alley2/publication/51997439_The_Palmer_Drought_Severity_Index_Limitations_and_Assumptions/links/53e1a2fd0cf2235f352bd3a2.pdf
    Measuring Drought | California Academy of Sciences

    Which is confusing. When we look at paleo records in california (tree rings) to find out how severe things were in the past it is much easier to see SPI then soil moisture and run off. If you use temperature as the only proxy, then you would have to claim its warmer now, only a little more rainfall than the worst years, hotter temperatures means worse drought, as we can't test the other measures.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/14/science/californias-history-of-drought-repeats.html
    So in the context of regions of california and spi measure of drought, this is not nearly as bad as some in the past 1200 years. The last century has been relatively wet for california. Then again if we use PDSI we can with a great deal of uncertainty say these 3 years may have been the worst. Pick you drought measure, your proxy, and your comfort with it.

    Finally there are 2 other studies than the NOAA one for attribution, one agrees with NOAA that there is no human attribution for this drought or rainfall, but if you are using PDSI, ghg made it hotter and thus worse on the scale. The other study is from Stanford, says human ghg made this one more likely, not just warmer.
    Stanford scientists: Warming temperatures implicated in California droughts
    Read them all or cherry pick the one that agrees with your opinion on the drought. If you read all 3 please comment here with your findings. NOAA seems to say its complicated and more work needs to be done to both improve the definition of drought and understanding of what causes the ocean climate conditions to stay blocked for so long.
     
    #1 austingreen, Jun 5, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2015
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  2. wxman

    wxman Active Member

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    In the September 2014 issue of the Bulletin of the American Meteorological Society (BAMS), there was a compilation of papers published entitled "EXPLAINING EXTREME EVENTS OF 2013 FROM A CLIMATE PERSPECTIVE." The California drought was among the extreme events looked at in that series of studies.

    One study (Swain, et al.) suggested that upper air flow circulations that persisted over that region were influenced by AGW, but did not make an explicit attribution claim regarding extremely low precipitation. Two other studies found no clear link to AGW (Funk, et al., and Wang and Schubert).

    Actually, the only clear links to AGW in the BAMS studies were heat waves in various areas around the world (5 extreme heat waves). Extreme precipitation events of 2013 were found to have been much less influenced by human-induced climate change than extreme high temperature events, and "stormy" weather events (e.g., blizzards, tropical cyclones) were not found to have any linkage to AGW.
     
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  3. mojo

    mojo Senior Member

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    Funk et all !
    Texas drought was supposed to be caused by global warming .Now the floods are blamed on global warming.

    But historically Texas flood and drought was the same severity as today.
    Everything bad today is caused by global warming. The floods and droughts of the past were caused by witches.
     
  4. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    #1 PDSI uses both known temperature and precipitation, and some empirical equations to turn those into soil water balance. It is what engineers might refer to as a kludge, but has become entrenched in the field. Also it was originally intended as a agriculture tool and has now been extended to all vegetation types.

    Whether PDSI or SPI are a better fit to a particular set of tree-ring data - well it depends I guess. But some reliance on proxies is necessary if we are to look beyond the thermometers and rain buckets.

    It might not be common knowledge, but the Big Daddy of tree-ring research was after one thing above all. That was tree-growth evidence for the 11-year solar cycle! He found it, too, but also found much more variations that eventually led to the entire science of paleoclimatology.

    Wood density, as well as ring width can be extracted from tree corings, and I don't know know whether PDSI or SPI generally fit better there.

    I fully expect that the outermost 4 or 5 growth rings in Calif. trees would be a narrow set compared with anything earlier in the regional record. That spans 2000 years in some forest types and much shorter in others. So, a fella might say "it has been xxx long since trees grew so slowly'. Thus avoiding any climatological interpretation. Just tree vs. tree. Send the manuscript off to a journal and I'm quite sure the reviewers will ask 'why no PDSI or SPI?' This is how 'entrenched' happens.

    Whether or not Calif. drought is strongly linked to current climatic conditions. Current water shortage is a fact and the affected areas ought to be preparing for the next one.

    If El Nino bulks up, there will probably be good snowpack in west coast mountains (their southern half) next winter. Before that, more drought, I would think.
     
  5. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    It seems that all the paleo research is based on the work of cook
    NOAA/NESDIS - North American Drought Variability

    And I have uncertainty on how certain the data is:cool: But perhaps some on this thread will help me. My question really is not if the data is good, but what constitutes this worst drought.

    We have a recent study that has set some peoples hair on fire for a human footprint in this drought data for california. It says its the worst drought ever.... but on reading it fully and assuming all its data is correct, I get a queezy feeling that they have rapidly dumbed down what drought and worst mean to be pdsi over a short 3 year period.

    To me the current drought in California, looking at the data is not really that bad. Just compare it to our recently ended texas drought. In texas we had dryness that led to massive fires destroying natural flora and fauna, major crop failures, extremely low levels in some lakes and rivers so that drinking water needed to be trucked to some communities because their water supplies disappeared. Still this wasn't nearly the worst drought in texas history, as now we can say it ended, others were longer and worse to crops, people, and wildlife. In california we need to wait and see if it ends, but so far the most I've seen is water restrictions. The drought in texas was made not as bad because of mitigation efforts from previous droughts, while in California the agricultural practices may be making this one worse. The california governor is trying to rectify this, but I don't know how successful he will be. Some people seem to think that all california has to do is get the world to produce less ghg, so why pick on those farmers and ranchers.

    So when I look at worst for california, its hard to say this is close to the worst when we look at paleo records of megadroughts. Of course this labeling of worst may be looked back upon as wet weather. The megadroughts according to the Stanford team had a 10% chance of happening each century. That is the team that thinks there is some attribution to this one. They are fairly clear that they are not saying human caused, only the ghg made this drought 3x as likely statistically They are predicting that a megadrought is likely in the the second half of the century. Still california has survived megadrughts in the past, and we have a lot of tools to make the next one not as destructive if california changes current policies.
     
    #5 austingreen, Jun 6, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2015
  6. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    Oh mojo, I had hoped that someone else would have commented so I wouldn't get dragged into your distraction here, but here goes.

    This is a thread about california not texas, but we can clearly see a difference in attribution on california drought (competing papers on if ghg may have made it more likely) and the texas drought which papers said was more likely because of the ghg. No scientific papers have said global warming "caused" the texas drought, that belongs to affinity sites. Here is the NOAA summary from 2011 which includes the texas drought. It would make me feel better if you read it all to understand what is being discussed.

    http://www1.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/data/cmb/bams-sotc/2011-peterson-et-al.pdf
    To my knowledge no attribution studies have been done for texas floods.

    Well that is not true of the 2011 drought, as far as we know it is the biggest drought year ever in texas. There have been worse multi year droughts, but even with all the rains our lake is still only at 80% of its full level. But that doesn't mean that we know ghg caused it.
    It is my feeling that the texas floods are much less extraordinary, but I will wait for attribution to quantify this. We have affinity sites that you don't like blaiming everything on global warming, and the ones that you read that seem to think ghg do little or nothing. Neither are scientific. The flying spaghetti monster blames the lack of pirates instead of green house gases, but of course this is pure satire.

    Here is NOAA on the sites that you don't like.
    But you should remember if you use that, it cuts both ways, if you scientifically look at extreme weather to say this event is likely simply because of natural variation, you also should look at the texas drought year of 2011 as made more likely by ghg than simple natural variation. The stanford paper on the california drought only makes it 3x more likely which is not a high bar, while the paper linked on the texas drought found it 20x more likely.
     
  7. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    The idea of a 100-year flood (for example) is derived from statistical analyses that have been traditionally been presented as exceedance graphs. One or both axes may be logarithmic, or the return intervals presented in even more arcane units. The point is, once you have a history of that local data, any event can be described according to its mean return interval.

    If a location had two big floods, the time between them can be compared to the underlying distribution, and a measure of the (im) probability of the situation follows.

    It is the standard procedure to describe streamflows, but I don't see the technique applied to temperature (extremes) or rainfall, or length of periods without rain (that lead into drought).

    Incidentally, nothing precludes two, 100-year floods in two successive years. But its probability (0.00tiny) can be defined
     
  8. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    Well that is part of my question. I would think soil moisture, creeks, rivers, lakes, deaths of humans/plants/animals etc would be important to analysing how severe a drought or a flood would be.

    Wouldn't a 100 year flood have a 1% of happening in any given year, but ... in places where ENSO is a prime determinant of flooding like california or Texas - If the phase was the same, then it has higher probability, so the year after a 100 year flood would be more likely to have anouther (>1%), In texas a El Nino phase is more likely for flooding than a La Nina.
     
  9. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    "Wouldn't a 100 year flood have a 1% of happening in any given year

    That is a precise definition! In no way does it EXCLUDE100-y floods happening back to back. Rather it allows the calculation of probability that such a thing could happen.

    AG also suggests separating ENSO + and - years in probability distributions and graphical analyses. I think this is a SUPERB idea that should be brought to the attention of hydrologists at UTA or elsewhere. The high-end journals are hungry for new insights from old data. Houston and other parts of TX are still sloppy wet. CA is unusually dry. Do it, my friend. I won't steal your idea (pinned down by wood decomposition). Other PC readers won't either, as they can't be bothered to read 1 (or 30) published papers.

    It's all you.
     
  10. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    "I would think soil moisture ... would be important to analysing how severe a drought or a flood would be."

    The PDSI is supposed to display soil moisture, but it is inadequate because of relying on indirect measures and empirical blah blah blah. Anyone can measure soil moisture anywhere (everywhere) with neutron probes or time-domain reflectometers. Those are very expensive. Alternative is to take (thousands of) soil samples, weigh, dry, weigh again. That would work well if you have large numbers of students, and you use tests to exclude their crappy data. They are children, and generate crappy data at some level of incidence.

    Drought is drought when plants cannot take enough water from soil to support photosynthesis. This depends on soil-water content (as above) but also on the particle-size distributions of soils. See, when you open the box, you find lots of other boxes inside.

    The other extreme is flood. Flood means that current water-input rates exceed the saturated hydraulic conductivity of soils, so there is surface runoff (Hortonian flow :) ). To understand this at the micro level requires a lot of local sampling.

    While I should not dissuade AG from addressing either extreme, the work required is daunting. I see more hope from moving to larger scales where ENSO +/- seems important.

    Data in US for local rainfall and stream flow are on the 100-yr scale at best. This is not many ENSO cycles; too bad about that, sorry. But in space there are thousands of watersheds (catchment basins, places where input water gets concentrated into output water). In time, we are f***ed. In space, things look pretty good. Not all strong retrospective hydrology research has yet been published :)
     
  11. mojo

    mojo Senior Member

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    California drought: Past dry periods have lasted more than 200 years, scientists say - San Jose Mercury News

    " 20140127_031535_ssjm0126megadry90.jpg "Through studies of tree rings, sediment and other natural evidence, researchers have documented multiple droughts in California that lasted 10 or 20 years in a row during the past 1,000 years -- compared to the mere three-year duration of the current dry spell. The two most severe megadroughts make the Dust Bowl of the 1930s look tame: a 240-year-long drought that started in 850 and, 50 years after the conclusion of that one, another that stretched at least 180 years. "
     
  12. mojo

    mojo Senior Member

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    Not that I think that CO2 has anything to do with it.But that graph above coincides pretty well with the medieval warm period.
    I hope its not the recovery from the Little Ice Age causing drought in the west.Because we have recovered.
     
  13. mojo

    mojo Senior Member

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    That Cook study shows pretty much 50% drought over the past 1200 years.
    600 years of drought.600 years wet.
    With those kind of odds ,Id say we're pretty screwed .
    Except that Earth is predicted to be entering a 30 year period of cooling . Ca. may be saved by the Sun and ocean currents.
    GAIA wont burn all the California "down to Earth" types.
     
    #13 mojo, Jun 10, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2015
  14. FL_Prius_Driver

    FL_Prius_Driver Senior Member

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    Defined based on what, the totally unrelated 100 year flood number?

    Mathematically, that comment is based upon an assumption of randomness that probably does not exist. Rather than delve into the mathematics, let me give an example. Let's say 100 year floods alway occur in runs of 10 to 300 years but over 1000000 years, only 10000 floods have occurred. So the flood probability is 1 per 100 years but the probability of a 100 year flood being proceeded or followed with another flood is 100%. You needed to clearly state the "definition" of the successive probability is completely different that the 1 year probability.
     
  15. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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  16. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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  17. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    FL, the assumptions are independence of events and stationarity. That's just the way the 'flood folks' work. The short (century-scale) stream flow records are a substantial limitation on the wet side.

    On the dry side, paleo proxies such as those used by Cook et al to create the North America Drought Atlas have enough time span so that (assuming proxies are measuring the desired thing) , then independence and stationarity can be tested.

    The graph in #11 argues against stationarity. Rather that there exist long-term climate regimes.

    Many moons ago, the monthly newsletter of a famous technical university in Pasadena CA had an article about nuclear power safety. The notable message was along the lines of "xxx happens every 20 years, it just happened , so we are safe for the next 20."

    a rather embarrassing example of getting such things wrong.
     
  18. FL_Prius_Driver

    FL_Prius_Driver Senior Member

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    But what actually makes those assumptions valid?

    This is not criticism, but just something fun to point out. The truth of the issue is all floods are completely deterministic...but not necessarily determinable by man. So we resort to probabilities to characterize this lack of real understanding. Then we soon fall into the trap of thinking nature is operating according to probabilities. It is not. It just seem like it until a better understanding is reached.

    So in the discussion of the draught and many other climate subjects, I see this happen. All the draughts had mechanisms causing them. Unfortunately, a lot of the AGW approach is to "sort of, kind of, maybe possibly" have a probability link of affecting the draught. This then leads to trying to find out the mechanisms by seeing what happens to probabilities due to running models instead of trying to find the mechanisms actually in play. The end result can be a highly praised model where the statistics of the model match the statistics of the draughts....but the model could have all the internal mechanisms wrong....leading to a dead end.
     
  19. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    I have not before here discussed my limited personal reliance on statistics. Not that I can recall anyway. :eek:

    We lack mechanistic understanding of global hydrology, and when one scales down to a local flood plain, it only gets worse. But one must do something, so recurrence analyses fill the void.

    If there are strong, ocean-mediated climate regimes (see Tsonis), and / or if high infrared absorption can move us to a different regime (see 'the 97%'), then stationarity-based statistics offer less utility.

    Of course, there are climate models (my first link @15) but then it's a balance between faith in Cook's research (expressed by mojo @11) and less faith in models' ability to get hydrology right (expressed by me and AustinG and lots others).

    But, there they are. Projections concerning hydrology in agric areas and dense population areas might lead to more rational water plans. In contrast to 'mainstream' models, dissenters have offered, well, nothing that I can discern.

    Which leads us back to 30-year cooling (again), so I'll initiate a thread on that, that mojo chose not to do.
     
  20. mojo

    mojo Senior Member

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    But in reality scientists are paid to say that theres doom and gloom if society continues to be productive.
    Take this guy Cook for example. Great at gathering data .
    But a grant whore when he has to analyze the data.
    $100 billion dollars in US funding, I dont blame them one bit.