Featured Toyota Prius SUV Reportedly in Development

about time.

 

Not sure what need for Prius SUV is since Rav4 hybrid is coming this Fall.

2016 Toyota RAV4 Hybrid | A smarter way to have more fun

 

From the article, "There is also a possibility that Toyota could implement just the diesel engine into the new crossover model without the electric powertrain, as well as the rest of its lineup to help gain an edge in the European market." While Toyota has a new 2.8L diesel for trucks, that is too large for smaller cars, and it may not have the NVH for car use if scaled down. Mazda already has the SkyActiv diesel out in production cars, though. So we are now seeing what Toyota is getting for giving Mazda access to HSD.

Here is an article on Mazda making a diesel hybrid, that is likely joint with Toyota since their Mazda3 hybrid uses Toyota tech, Mazda To Offer Diesel-Hybrid (In Japan Only) While U.S. Diesels Still MIA. No hint on what this hybrid would be beyond a car. So it could be two completely different models from Toyota and Mazda that they are jointly working on, or something akin to the sports car twin Toyota did with Subaru.

The Prius SUV sounds more like reporter speculation and click bait. The big news here is Toyota going with Mazda diesel engines for its European models. They might make a SkyActiv diesel and HSD hybrid; which is likely if they are directly helping Mazda with their diesel hybrid. If it happens to be a crossover, I don't think we'll see it soon in the US. The higher car and fuel price, coupled with perceptions here, make plain diesel cars a tougher sell. Then Mazda is still working on getting the SkyActiv diesel Mazda6 to comply with US emission standards, which are just a bit stricter than the rest of the world, without SCR. Perhaps as a hybrid the drivetrain would pass, but this is mostly about the European market where diesels are still popular.

 

rav 4 is too big to compete with crv.

 

do you mean hrv? Rav4 is similar in size to crv, less than an inch longer and wider.

 

Great . . . . there goes Bob Wilson's blood pressure

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idk, crv looks more streamline?

does mazda have an suv toyota might prefer to building their own? maybe they are going to trade hsd for suv.

 

It does look slicker, and that might mean it loses some cargo volume in the back corner, but the CR-V and Rav4 exterior and interior measurements are nearly identical. Toyota doesn't list a passenger volume to go with those interior measurements like Honda(damn you Toyota), and Honda doesn't list cargo volume(damn them more).
2015 Honda CR-V - Specifications - Official Site
Toyota RAV4 Interior, Exterior & Safety Features

 

Toyota Prius SUV reportedly in the works with Mazda engine

Now I wonder if it is going to be CX-5 with new skins and Mazda's HSD adaptation as seen in Mazda Axela (Mazda3) or it will be Gen3 TNGA based with Mazda's small diesel shoehorned?

 

You may be right so far all Mazda diesels were non-NA. There are 2 factors influencing this: one that Mazda has to resolve CARB plug-in issue if they want to continue selling cars in California after 2018, and another the EPA/diesel issues.

From what I read on Mazda6 diesel fiasco, they did get it to pass EPA w/o after-treatment, but were not satisfied with sub-par output. 1.5L has been design to address these issues, and in Hybrid trim output is less critical. So it is conceivable that they can tune it to pass w/o after-treatment.

With current gas prices there isn't much market in US on 105hp powered cars, but it could be different in hybrid form, if combined output in 150-175hp range. Yes diesel fuel is more expensive than regular, but it is cheaper then premium, so if you have to turbo engines, diesel wins over premium gas in both MPG and fuel costs.

 

The first is just politics. All they need to do is buy credits, so no need to build plug-ins to sell mazdas in carb states.

The second is a matter of technology and price. They may be able to get it to pass without a scr unit which keeps the price down in japan. Or they may need one in the US. Its not tough stuff but american diesel market is small, smaller than the plug-in market if you don't count pick up trucks.

Sure but why not put a gas engine in that for the US market. Even volvo decided the us market should get gasoline not diesel. Its about the price. Diesel adds a lot to the price of the vehicle, but doesn't really reduce fuel cost, only fuel gallons in the US market. In the European market where diesel is taxed less than gasoline and people prefer it, it makes a tiny bit more sense, but still is a stretch.

The di and valve timing means that you can make a turbo that burns regular. Diesel has about 15% more energy than E10 but in hybrid form its hard to get that extra 15% mpg bonus, while a non hybird may get more. That makes it hard to sell that more expensive diesel hybrid in the US if you could sell simply the diesel or a gasoline hybrid.[/QUOTE]

 

The diesel hybrid doesn't sound to be a definite yet.
It is likely Toyota will source Mazda diesels for their European models though.

 

volvo appears to have it working in their very expensive v60 phev. They have decided that this is not for the US market and is building the XC90 for this market with a gasoline engine. The gasoline phev is much more popular than their more expensive diesel phev.
Volvo's XC90 PHEV More Popular Than Expected

Toyota has access to both mazda and bmw diesel engines. I would think for europe they may go with more expensive but also more efficient bmw engines, as these don't need to pay import duty (I don't think mazda has a diesel plant in europe).

This beast looks like a CUV not a SUV, and diesel hybrid is pure speculation. I'm not saying that they won't make it a diesel hybrid in hybrid hungry and easier emissions japan, but I doubt they would sell that in the US or Europe.
Toyota Prius SUV rumored in the pipeline - SlashGear
which points to this as the source
Toyota Prius SUV Reportedly in Development

So here we have rumor on rumor. First its a publication that thinks crossovers are SUVs, but we can clearly see what vehicle they are talking about. The Rav4 hybrid and highlander hybrid will be toyota's hybrid SUVs. Then perhaps their may be a diesel version of the beast, and it may or may not be hybrid, and may or may not be called a prius (toyota calls the japanese aqua a prius c in america). Then given american fuel taxes even if it is a diesel hybrid CUV, I find it unlikely that toyota or mazda would export it to the US.

 

Even with DI turbocharging 1:14 engine and keeping it on regular isn't simple. If you look at current crop, EcoBoost, Hyundai, etc they all 1:10 engines. Dropping compression will reduce efficiency.

In regular vs diesel fuel cost is a wash what you gain in efficiency you loose in fuel. But in premium vs diesel it is different story, b/c diesel is cheaper and more efficient. Plus if you take cost of after treatment out, turbo diesel isn't more than turbocharged DI engine.

BTW Europe isn't a country, and diesels make sense in many EU countries like Italy where it costs as much as gasoline.

 

The important thing is effective compression and expansion which includes the turbo charging. Say you have a 50% boost (7psi) and have atkinson valve timing of 80%, that effectively is a compression stroke of (10x80%x150%) = 12 and an expansion stroke of 15 in a miller cycle. Part of the work of compression is done by the exhaust gasses making it more efficient than an akinson of these measures. Where the turbo efficiency is worse is low rpm where waste gates are open so you might do a 6 compression 10 expansion versus a 6 compression 14 expansion in a prius ice at the same power level, or high power where extra gasoline is used to cool the engine.

But you can't take off the cost of pollution controls and the heavier duty diesel engine in the US. A diesel is simply going to cost more to conform to regulations in the US, and will be heavier for the same power.

I never said it was, but it is a market where diesel has been traditionally favored over gasoline through taxation. Some european countries favor it more than others.

This looks like a toyota modified mazda cx-3 type crossover to compete with the honda hr-v, fiat 500x, etc. Its smaller and lighter than the rav4, cr-v, etc, and should be able to get better fuel economy.
Compare Side-by-Side
the mazda and honda small crossovers get 31mpg combined with gas. I would think a gasoline hybrid cx-3 based prius should be able to get over 50+ mpg city, around 37 mpg hwy. I'm not sure a diesel hybrid would top that much on an epa test.

 

Prius SUV or something like this! Toyota Builds the World's Most Bad-nice person Minivan—from a Sienna

 

This is great but since you seem to be having some weird ideas that turbocharging engine by 7.35psi will also increase its efficiency by 1.5 times you need to take physics 101 if you wanna continue this. Here is a good start:
Isentropic process - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

For ideal gas the P*T/V stays constant. Irregardless of what the pressure is when you apply 2nd law of thermodynamics the efficiency of heat engine is defined by compression ratio. In real life you need to include heat/friction/pumping losses and other design aspects. Intake/exhaust distribution phases are important, so is advance timing, but since diesel engine is less revving (max HP of Mazda's 1.5 oil burner is at 4,000RPM) it will have narrower phases and will be more efficient.

Turbocharging increases effective combustion pressure. Unfortunately for gasoline engines this comes at price as additional heat/pressure results in in pre-ignition and loss of power. To combat this engineers reduce compression ratio on turbocharged engines. This reduces theoretical efficiency, but in real life this is often negated by reduced pumping losses and having downsizing engine run at optimal load.

The highest regular gasoline compression ratio car engine sold in US is fitted in Prius C. It has compression ratio of 1:13.4. Just for the records there are currently no Atkinson cycle engines in production. So-called "Atkinson" engine is modified Otto cycle engine which mimics Atkinson cycle by reducing combustion pressure via modified intake phase. It does it to negate pre-ignition, but as a result less fuel is burned and the output drops. So "Atkinson" trades output for efficiency, opposite to what turbo-charged downsized engines do.

Mazda designed low compression diesels with aluminum block/heads. Take turbo/intercooler plumbing off and they weight about as much their gasoline counterparts.

Costs are of concern and with current low gas prices it is hard to make the case for diesel. We can make the case that turbocharged diesel may be preferred over premium sipping turbocharged DI, since it would have advantage in MPG and cheaper fuel, but only in case if this would cover the additional costs.

Mazda currently sells hybrid Mazda Axela, and they talked about replacing 2L gas with 1.5L diesel for this application. Since all SkyActiv Mazdas (except Miata) are built on the same platform, what fits in Mazda3 will fit into CX-5, CX-3, etc.So Prius SUV may be equivalent of Scion iA - CX-3 or CX-5 with Toyota badge.

Another possibility Toyota will just outsource Mazda's diesel and build new SUV on Gen4 TNGA platform. TNGA should theoretically allow Toyota re-dress Gen4 into SUV quickly.

 

The reported compression ratio of an Atkinsonized Otto is really just its expansion ratio. Since the valves delay closing, the compression ratio, and the volume of air fuel mixture, is actually less, and closer that of low octane Otto cylce engines. The gasoline engine with highest true compression ratio will be direct injection. I think it's Mazda's SkyActiv-Gs in the US.

Mazda cut their diesel engine's weight by lowering the compression ratio, but what has this done to the engine's efficiency?