First Hyundai now BMW. Ditching Fuel Cell Vehicles

Not enough? how about this (1911 Ideal ad):

1912 Ohio electric car:

 

how about we start the clock once you can drive from one contiguous state to the next, all 48. Heck ... at least make it one more state than the dozen or so carb States. That may only cost the U.S. taxpayers a half trillion bucks or so for refueling stations. It's only a bunch of zeros in a bank ledger anyway.
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Sure, we can start with those if you want to delve into history.
We should also start the clock for hybrids in 1900 with the first hybrid. Lohner-Porsche - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Or we could start with mass produced, generally available models.
This would start the clock for hybrids in 1997 with the Prius.
2010 for electrics with the Volt and Leaf.
And we will have to wait to see when Toyota, or someone starts mass producing FCVs. I suspect that will be sometime after 2020 and hundreds of millions of taxpayer's money.

 

unfortunately, no one will be watching the clock except us.

 

So there were 2 Lohner-Porsche customs built in total, great catch!

here is the list of American electric car manufacturers:
Early Electric Automobile Manufacturers

I am afraid they built at least as many as Lohner-Porsche did, no?

 

There's a couple missing off of the list.

GM's long road back to electric cars - From the earliest autos (1) - CNNMoney.com

 

I don't know, I would guess so. EVs were quite popular until the advent of the electric starter.

The point is, there has been a century of advances, in gas cars. While no advances were made in EVs.
So starting the "clock" back then is rather rediculous. Just as it is rather rediculous to start it back then for hybrids.
Mass produced hybrids, realistically started when Toyota unveiled the Prius. They are the king of hybrids and still unmatched when it come to 100% gas fueled cars.
EVs didn't reach mass production until 2010. There is much more successful competition with the most efficient model switching from manufacturer to manufacturer each year.

And EVs are moving from the beginning of mass production to mainstream faster than hybrids did.
This is due, in my opinion, to a much healthier level of competition.
Both hybrids and EVs have/will reach mass adoption far faster than fuel cell vehicles.
I'd be willing to bet that is the case even if you "started the clock" way back when the first hand made versions were created.

 

That is not true. There were numerous advances made in battery field. Lohner-Porsche you quote had 270-ampH 80V battery (21.6kWh) and weighted 4ton. Used 4 3hp electric motors. Tesla model S weights 2.1 ton and has battery x3 times bigger. And produces 329 to 691 HP

 

I did not say technology stopped.
After about 1920 nobody made any "mass produced" EVs. There was nothing to "advance".
In 2003 Tesla was formed and they took the advances that had been made in technology and produced a proof of concept EV.
In 2012 Tesla started up their mass produced Luxury Sedan. However, GM and Nissan started up theirs two years earlier.

Over that "lull", mass production of gas cars continued making advances for 80-90 years.

 

You can say that until Insight 1.0 there hasn't been any mass-produced hybrid cars.

Or you can also say that there were many mass-produced series hybrids during this time such as diesel-electric locomotives, submarines and ships. And there were definitely many-many post 1920 mass-produced electric vehicles such as trolleys and trams. Or how about more recent electric run-abouts or fork lifts? golf cards? wheel chairs?

So who is re-writing history to fit your narrative?

EVs as a class precede the invention of Otto cycle engine (1834 vs 1876).

 

I don't know about rewriting history, but you are rewriting what I said.
As I just said in my last response, technology has certainly continued to move forward.
Electric cars have been in an almost century long lull.
I didn't say the all electric devices have been in a lull.
Yes, electric wheelchairs and electric toys and electric fork lifts have continued to be built.
And yes, other, non car hybrids have continued development as well.

My statement was focused on mass produced cars.
If you want to talk about the base technology and its use in other products, I'd be fine with discussing that in another thread.

 

call it the tangent thread



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Which one's MG1?

 

So you did not say this or am I re-writing it?

(no mentioning of mass production) (and no mentioning of the cars, just electric vehicles)

(once again no mentioning of cars, so it is still vehicles)
......................................................

According to General Motors EV1 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia states that EV1 was a production car. It also states that it was mass-produced:

Mass-production term was added to Britannica in 1926, so effectively no car prior 1926 (even Model T) were mass-produced. But all those 1900 EVs were produced in comparable quantities and using the same technology as gasoline powered cars.

The truth is that electric vehicles had preceded gas-powered, they were as common until they lost ground to ICE. Their production never stopped. So to say that "It is rather amazing that electrics are catching on as quickly, or quicker, than hybrids did." is a bit of the stretch.

 

I'm not sure where this tangent came from but, I know the origin of that last part.

Members of the press picked up on an anti-plug-in movement. This is probably epitimized by Pennsylvania congressman and chevy and hyundai dealer Mike Kelly that went on a tirade against the volt and all plug-in vehicles. He went on numerous news shows, and even held congressonal hearings to stop the volt from being sold. His thesis was oil subsidies are good, but no one will ever buy a plug-in. He introduced legislation, that thankfully didn't go anywhere to try and kill any subsidies for the plug-ins (again he wanted the money for the oil companies he owned as part of his wife's wealth brought into the marriage)

Oil-Rich Republican Mike Kelly Introduces Legislation To End $7,500 EV Tax Credit - Gas 2

In that context is probably is appropriate to compare hybrid sales to plug-in sales once the vehicles became commercially available in the modern era (1997 for hybrids, or 2000 if looking at the US, 2010 plug-ins, both end of the year so 1998, 2001, 2011 if doing calendar year comparisons). There is no question plug-ins are doing better, so the people that bought into Plug-ins should be aroudn half a million world wide this year, partially thanks to incentives by the US and Chinese governments.

I'm not sure what the other navel contemplation is about.

 

will this help?
Amicus Plato, sed magis amica veritas

Electrics are not catching up quicker than hybrids, either way you look at it.

modern BEV and PHEV passenger cars are catching up quicker than hybrids, and this is due to:
1) higher gas prices
2) more general acceptance

 

I'm trusting you're aware that this picture dates from the mid 1960's just prior to the discontinuation of trolley buses in the UK?

They do keep talking of introducing them again (obviously modern versions), but electric buses are becoming quite popular.

 

I was not aware of tolleybus dismissal in UK, was just looking for older pic.
But even if they are out of UK they are still mass produced and viable in other countries and even USA (2nd picture is from Boston).
Trolleybus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Trolleybus usage by country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

GM didn't buy them did they?

 

Trolleys and buses are the orange in a discussion on personal cars. If they are included, then GM has had a successful hybrid for some time. Two-mode was a scaled down version of what they had in buses.