First Hyundai now BMW. Ditching Fuel Cell Vehicles

why? because if you simply SAY most little 100amp service panels are what folks have & that sitting at EVSE's wasting time is what folks do - then maybe somebody will be gullible enough to believe it .... kind of like when Toyota says, there'll be a million fuel cell cars on the road by 2020.

i'm certain he'll get back with you, just as soon as we beat the whole "no-the ev production clock started here" - dead-horse diatribe a bit more. Jeez.
.

 

The Electrovair is an EV, the Electrovan is an FCV.

 

maybe they should look into this:
Soda Can Hydrogen Generator for Alternative Energy

 

That was a joke, right?
You do realize...
A) Just how long it would take to get an once of H2, much less a kg.
B) Transferring the hydrogen to the high pressure car tank may pose some challenges.

 

Most homes have 200 amps.
Do you use your A/C all night?

The Tesla superchargers give 200 miles in 30 minutes, IIRC.

Most people with an EV will charge at home a night or during the day while at work. Why is this so hard to understand?
Sure, for longer road trips EVs are not that practical (yet). But every car does not need to do everything for everybody.

But, your daily and yearly miles traveled in NOT the norm

Check out these numbers:
http://www.statisticbrain.com/commute-statistics/

Most people only commute less than 15 miles one way to work. 85% go less than 35 miles one way.

 

Some homes need expensive upgrades, but most can easily handle an inexpensive 6.6kw for a charger. Say you charge from midnight to 6 am (rotate hours for your needs) which on a 89 mpge car, would provide 6.6x6 (devils numbers)/33.7kwh/gge x 89 mpge = 105 miles. If you are traveling more than this daily you may need to be inconvienced. This is less than 1% of drivers, but I believe cyclopathic is part of that 1%. A BEV may be inappropriate for these people, but they are not for everyone. I would say a fcv is less likely to satisfy the needs of this 1% as hydrogen stations will not be built on their roots. Oh well.

That's where tesla's and phevs come to play, and of course disels and hybrids ;-)

I believe that 50 miles is now the number for most daily miles not on long trips, and 200 miles or 300 km to include long trips but be ok for a 20 minute break to charge to 80%.

 

I love the concept of the Tesla and even its execution. But its price is a show stopper for all but a few. Just as a Hydrogen Toyota is.

If you can afford one and want to live with its limitations, good for you. Most can't or won't. A hybrid at $20-25k will be good enough for most of the people who will be even tempted to buy an unusually powered vehicle.

Unfortunately, the world is awash in crude right now so the economics tell me that significant sales (say in the million cars/year range) without massive subsidy and/or government mandate is just not around the corner.

 

I look forward to seeing FCV joining the Hybrid Dashboard report along with the Honda Civic CNG.

Bob Wilson

 

This depends on local build codes and when house was built. Most homes in our area have 100amp.

Yes you turn A/C in May and turn it off in October

It is not only "not practical", they just don't make any sense from other points of view. Maybe this would help to understand it?

Actually our area has the highest number of stretch commuters in the country due to spiral and cost of housing.

That aside one could argue, if you drive <15mi to work (7500mi annual) you do not need any fuel BEV at all. There is a snowball chance in hell you would ever see any benefits of it.

Face it: the BEV paranoia is mostly limited to California, and mostly due to HOV sticker situation and x2 national average price of fuel.

 

Very misleading.
You again take your specific use/costs and make all encompassing statements.
For me, the fuel costs are about a third or yours.

Also, the fuel costs are not the only reason for buying electric.
Heck, if costs are the only thing you are looking at hybrids don't work out for most people.

EVs have many advantages over ICE cars on top of fuel costs.
Hybrids have only a fuel cost advantage, so their sales are linked with gas prices much more closely than EVs.

 

This is great, but you do realize that if you drive 2 times less it will take 2 times more time to get return on your investment, right? And even if your electricity is free, Prius+lifetime fuel << much less $$$$ << than Tesla?

Yes sure here is the list of BEV advantages:
- they cost x3 times more
- you cannot drive one non-stop not only across country, even most of the states.
- in many locales they produce more well to wheel GHG

so basically BEV owners dissing on Murai is like pot dissing on the kettle. Is this b/c BEVs lost the cool factor to FC?

 

Now you are just trolling.
For those that don't already know, but are interested...

EVs have superior performance to cars at their price point.
They also have a smoother, quieter ride that cars at their price point, and in many cases above their price point.
They are far more responsive than any ICE car.
EVs are also far more convenient for that part of the market that has a garage with electricity.
Far safer than ICE vehicles.
In some cases, have much more storage and passenger space.
In general, far less maintenance.
Uses local, rather than imported fuel.

 

And who is trolling exactly?

 

Which of those do you disagree with?

 

I am not disagreeing I am just stating that you are a troll

 

I think many have forgotten what a real troll is since the political boards opened.

 

I think we should all step back and be more careful with choosing words.

There is no doubt that I may be coming across as anti-BEV, were in reality I am not; just being pragmatic. BEVs or FCs are great idea, which I support. But unfortunately presently there are sociopolitical and technical issues to overcome before they become mainstream. They obviously riding a hype wave now, but for how long?

From practical point of view BEVs make perfect sense as self-driving taxis, subscription service like zip car or local rental. As a POV they suffer from short range, long charge time and lack of infrastructure. And the cost. FCV have even worse infrastructure issues, and similar costs.

PHEVs are great but for most part the economics are not quite there yet. While you might be saving on fuel even in PiP the extra costs are not likely to be recovered in general.

This is not to say that in some cases BEVs and PHEVs are not beneficial. If they give you free access to HOV/HOT lanes, and save time and money they may be more than worth it.

And to those who installed solar arrays so they have "zero CO2 footprint" think: for the price of your Tesla S and 26K array you could have bought one Prius, lifetime supply of gas and doubled the size of your array to clean your neighborhood grid. Even at relatively clean mix locales CO2-wise Prius isn't dirtier than Tesla by much. If you produce clean 1kWh it does not matter if you put it in your Tesla or give it to neighbor, the net CO2 impact will be the same.

 

you're right of course ..... it's just being pragmatic to claim that the only luxury sedan that can go from 0-60mph in 3 seconds - AND, with its new 90kWh pack, travel ~300 miles, without the need of a brand new multi $100billion infrastructure buildout - AND that can refuel economically & carbon free @ home - that it's 'just a glorified golf cart' . Pretty much all golf carts do all that, right? And which golf cart - going over 100mph, can allow its occupants to not only survive horrific collisions, but allow the user to walk away? Thanks for the pragmatic pearls of wisdom. I can't wait for the next comeback, where my ignorance is set straight. Because if the above unmatched specs are tantamount to a glorified golf cart, please enlighten me with your 'pragmatic' labels - which mass produced internal combustion engine vehicle does ALL the above, or better, than ones you label a glorified golf cart. Which ICE is that?

.

 

You just being silly. Majority of the people do not buy luxury cars, and one should dully note that if you have 80k to spare on a means of transportation, gas prices should be least of your concern. Even if similarly equipped hybrid Lexus with lifetime gas supply is cheaper still; but if you prefer to spend your money on "glorified golf cart" it is your choice.

But kid you not (actually you can kid yourself as much as you want, just do not kid others). As a green alternative to expensive Audies, MBs and Bimmers, and whatever else you wanna include, Tesla is great. As a means of basic transportation? well sure if 80k sticker means bare necessities to you and if you never drive more than 1 charge a time. Or you're willing to put up with long charge times and lack of infrastructure.

With respect to 0 to 60, this has no bearing for 99% of people. Public roads are not the place for drag racing, and if you hit it a few times you're almost guaranteed to get a reckless and street racing tickets around here. I do not live in the world of quoter mile and 0 to 60 times, and if I did I'd get the motorcycle. 14.5k Hayabusa, ZX-14 or 25k H2 will do better 1/4mi for less. But mind not on public road. On public roads 11.7sec Prius C or 10.7 Gen3 is just fine. Most of the time it will take 20-30sec for sleeping drivers to realize that light had change and they need to flip the foot from brake to accelerator. And then they will slooowly accelerate to 25MPH.

IMHO that HOV lanes are designed for High Occupancy Vehicles, not for expensive toys driven by pompous jerks. Not that there is anything wrong with being a pompous jerk, but they can sure afford to pay for the lane use. Why should we subsidize it?

And pls stop the "carbon free @ home" travesty. If you worried about CO2 sell your solar back to grid, the net CO2 impact will be the same as putting in your BEV. Better yet take the price difference btw Tesla and Prius and donate it into CO2 reclamation fond.

 

@Zythryn, @Trollbait and @hill.

IMHO that the future of BEV is $10k iMIEV or google self-driving bubble limited range commuter supplement to soccer mom-mobile, not a "real car". Kudos to Tesla for building Model S, but as is it will stay a rich geek niche car and will never become a mainstream. The costs, infrastructure and charging technology is just not there yet.