VW Faces $17B Fine for Emissions Scam

i drove merc diesels from 1990 thru 2001. i liked the idea of alternative fuels, especially restaurant oil.

just drove by a used car dealer with a few vdubs on the lot. don't feel that bad for him.

 

We don't need to go there. The diesel advocates are victims worse than anyone else since many of them have tens of thousands of dollars or more sitting on their driveways.

Bob Wilson

 

Whats happened before will happen again, and again, and again.

When the Justice Department accused Toyota Motor Corp. of violating federal clean-air standards and demanded that Japan's largest auto maker recall 2.2 million of its vehicles & $60 billion in fines.

NYT '99

 

Stopped by the local VW dealership (rode my motorcycle through the lot) earlier today, the same one that I called the other day......

All the TDI's were moved into the far back of the lot sitting together in penance...

 

Uh, no.

Try linking the relevant case and let people see if it's anything close the VW corporate's outright villainy.

Toyota Faces Massive Fines in EPA Battle - latimes

And this is the final outcome.

Toyota Motor Corporation Settlement | Enforcement | US EPA

Toyota said they wouldn't settle for anything greater than $100m (as they knew they were mostly in the right), and they did exactly that at $34m.

 

Hell no! Toyota's case isn't even comes close. Toyota never attempted to intentionally avoid EPA regulations. The issue was that ECU did not run evaporator can test often enough, so it could go undetected for some time.

BUT this has not been specified in 1st place! And as soon as EPA requested they updated software and were testing evaporators as often as EPA wanted too. Toyota's biggest beef with Justice Dept and EPA was trying to re-write rules retroactively to fit their narrative.

I am afraid VW is in big trouble. Justice dept and EPA were looking for poster case for quite some time, and they found it!

 

Owners will be "rolling coal" for a while if they can not sell their used diesels, and if nobody will accept it as trade for a new vehicle, or VW will buy it back.

 

I had an older VW Scirrocco way back, disabled by a srew that was loose. Apparently a ground

Friend had a 2-12 Audi A6. After a few warranty visits, they ended up replacing the console, then the entire instrument panel cluster. After that, a couple of sensors. Regular maintenance was a $2,500 brake job.......at 26,000 miles.

 

If these cars really exceeded the Tier 2 Bin 5 limits, and it is looking like it wasn't that high CleanMPG Forums - View Single Post - 482,000 VW TDIs Produce 5 to 35Xs the NOx Beyond Federal Emissions Requirements, They would releasing 2 to 3 grams of NOx per mile.

The cars won't be rolling coal. Like any gasoline car out of emission spec, you won't be able to tell if these cars were polluters by sight.

 

To be fair, it's the opposite of "rolling coal" that is the VW 2-liter's problem.

"Rolling coal" is by definition running ridiculously rich so that combustion is insufficient and the output is soot. The incomplete combustion means that both energy generation and fuel economy are poor, and things downstream of the cylinders (specifically oxygen sensors) will be subject to fouling by soot. Kids "rolling coal" probably couldn't care less about functional emissions equipment anyways.

"Rockin' NOx" (my term ), the problem with these 2-liter TDIs, is running lean and hot, which is what causes oxidation of nitrogen into nitrogen oxides.

Nitrous Oxide Emissions | Climate Change | US EPA

It persists for 114 years and is 300 times more effective a greenhouse gas than the same weight of CO2.

The upside is that combustion is complete, which is why TDIs can get great fuel "economy" (it needs to be noted that diesel has higher energy density than gasoline) without having to resort to regenerative braking and aggressive aerodynamic optimizations of a typical hybrid.

One solution to the NOx issue of a fully-combusting diesel engine is the injection of AdBlue (essentially urea + water) into the exhaust, which neutralizes the NOx. The problem with most of these VW TDIs is that VW claimed to have solved the NOx issue without the added complexity and cost of the AdBlue system, which as we all see they simply lied about.

The most probable "fix" to VW's cheat is to reprogram the ECU to run richer, which is going to push them toward the state of "rolling coal", and also means reduced performance, reduced fuel economy, and reduced emissions equipment reliability. But whether this will run afoul of other emissions limits is something that remains to be seen. They will be really screwed if that is the case.

 

How does that compare to GM, Ford, and Chrysler making cars so bad in there previous history that unbelievable number of auto jobs were lost due to corporate incompetence of the same type? What would you recommend to US government do?

Not trying to be argumentative, but your point only seems to say avoiding the ripple effect of enforcing the law requires ....letting VW off the hook?

 

VW has always gotten off the hook for something or another, usually reliability. I've always been amazed at how the Germans could produce some of the most fun to drive cars, that had to be driven or towed to the dealer so often. But then again, I've always been amazed at how Toyota can produce such reliable cars, that are amongst the least fun to drive.

Is it too much for me to ask that the two traits, reliability and fun to drive, be merged?

 

Mazda

 

No, not saying let them off the hook at all. Just saying that those vehemently calling for VW to be put out of business should consider the consequences.

 

Yeah, I know that.

 

At least 90% of the population will not be aware of this VW issue details. They will just remember that VW diesels had some sort of issue in the past. Heck, I still have folks telling me that Prius's have all kinds of battery problems according to their sources. (And that problem does not even exist.) VW has no risk of leaving the gas car business or diesel business. It is also an emissions issue of principle, not deep environmental damage.

The real damage is the VW corporate attitude towards important environmental priorities. This may be accepted by some in Germany, but the US actually gets serious about these matters when they need to. I'm more worried about too much EPA leniency than VW mega-profit fluctuations. It's like shooting at someone and then deciding the sentence based entirely on how much the bullet missed. A lot of (non-priuschat) comments show a lot of posters lacking an understanding of what "intellectual honesty" actually is.

Merged

Ask Tesla

Merged

Fair enough.

 

I am tempted to get one when the prices drop to the floor.

Unfortunately we live in the place which requires emission tests, so when car is tested or registered they will mandate ECU patched. Which would make it performance-crappy and diesel-thirsty.

While excessive NOx emissions are of concern for inner city driving, they realistically less of the issue on freeways.

WHat is especially amazing that large trucks, buses and locomotives are exempt from these rules, so they can legally spit hundreds times more.

MERGED

Buy Mazda. Seriously.

 

Don't worry, I'm still alive

Honestly, this is very disappointing news. I do not think that there will be an easy solution for the cars that aren't using SCR.

 

What kind of impact this will have in Canada? Is it similar to US where many will be forced to downgrade ECU software at some point

 

I think that Canadian cars will be affected the same way that American cars are, and will have to get the same new software. Our emissions regulations basically follow American regulations. Today, VW Canada announced that they have also stopped selling the affected models.