Featured Toyota's statement regarding emissions testing

Though it is very unlikely that Toyota is lying, but isn't this what VW also said?

It is just a PR crap.

 

I can't see any reason to lie about it if Toyota can meet the emissions requirement. If a few dollars savings per car can be had by cheating, it is all lost when they are caught. With VW, they couldn't comply and make the car price competitive, fuel efficient and fun to drive. Complying would have defeated the purpose of building the car in the first place.

But yes, all companies go as low as they can go at times. It's too bad that profits can be higher by leaving the bad part in place and paying the law suits. Remember Ford and the fuel tanks. They new of the problem. It was just cheaper to pay out when people died then recall all the cars. Shame on them.

 

Toyota announces aggressive environmental targets through 2050; cutting new vehicle CO2 by 90% compared to 2010

Green Car Congress: Toyota announces aggressive environmental targets through 2050; cutting new vehicle CO2 by 90% compared to 2010

 

We have had the following:

• 2008 - EPA revised the fuel economy test and our 2003 suddenly lost mileage . . . (transparent at the pump.)
• ~2010 - IIS revised their testing and took 'stars' away from the Prius rating
• ~2012 - IIS began rating driver assists systems and ranked Prius low
• ~every two years - IIS comes up with another change to spring on the Prius and rank them lower
• NHTSA follows IIS lead

Each one of these is a 'taking' by moving the goal posts. But I think your asking about something worse.

So let us image a worst case, "the random air motion moves it all to the corner of the room" event. Say 100 blind, kids, and bicyclists die in one week under various Prius. The probability is very, very low and averaged over the number of Prius and years, we'd still be safer than the average USA vehicles that kill about 4,000 per year. But if it happened all at once, in a short time period, it would receive a lot of publicity. So Congress and NHTSA decide all Prius must be banned (aka., the National Federation of the Blind "dream".)

Personally, I'd be pissed and complain but that doesn't always work. There are other hazards out there that the USA 'lives with' that are infinitely worse. Then there are the faux hazards of vaccinations.

All we can do is deal with the facts and data and try to make sense. But I remember the 19th Amendment was another such experiment and it gave us organized crime.

Bob Wilson

 

yes let's say they put a stop order on Prius b/c of the issue with the brakes.

 

it would be disappointing if it turned out that toyota was cheating to make the prius pass a government test, but i wouldn't want to drive one in that case, so no problem if they pulled it.

anyone driving a vdub diesel because they were promised that they're 'clean', should be justifiably outraged, and should want to move to something that passes without cheating. if they don't, then they never really cared about the environment in the first place.

 

people like grumpy have been waiting for a definitive statement from toyota. now he has it. if you think it's pr, that's your prerogative, but some were concerned that the silence was deafening.

 

Corporate-speak.
Translation: Nanner-Nanner Boo Boo!!!!

 

With VW, there was reason for doubt. How were they able to achieve that level of "clean" without the extra equipment other vehicles required and still be able to deliver high MPG? That didn't add up.

With Toyota, we can clearly witness the system hybrid running to generate for the sake of cleansing emissions. Why else would they make a tradeoff like that? Heck, even the hybrid exhibits that behavior. It's quite clear watching coolant temperature.

 

We have a better example. The Mirai doesn't meet a US regulation for protecting first responders from electrocution; such as when cutting into the car to extract victims of a crash. Toyota got a waiver because they are only selling a low number of the cars. What if their FCEV system can't be made to pass the regulation. FCEVs are a part of Japan's energy and economic plans. To be successful, exporting the cars is an important part of that plan. It is also important to some in Toyota. The pressure could be great enough to convince themselves to cheat until the problem can be fixed instead of stopping sales in California.

 

We saw in the 'ahem' other case that toyota hired a regulator to lobby his former organization to bend the rules for them. I'm sure that is the course for toyota, as they have already had heavy fines for breaking other US regulations.

Big Auto (VW, GM, Ford, Honda, Toyota) have all been caught violating US law in safety. Hyundai US law in efficiency reporting. I read an opinion piece that the VW fine will probably be about $2B for this pollution lie. Toyota paid $1.2B for lieing about safety information that related in deaths. GM $900M for botched recall resulting in deaths (it was lower than toyota even though more deaths because GM was much more cooperative once they were caught, vw is being cooperative now that its caught). I can't imagine vw being fined much more than gm and toyota for what seems a more flagrant but not deadly violation. GM was only fined $45M when caught with its defeat device.
Carmaker Cheating on Emissions Almost as Old as Pollution Tests - Bloomberg Business

But IMHO toyota likely is trying to learn its lessons from that bad time. I doubt they are doing any more than making emissions low for the test. Defeat device or software seems unnecessary for toyota.

Still this tarnishes all the big automakers.

 

Toyota translation.... VW, you stupid. Toyota just pay the government officials (ie. legal bribe, I mean lobby) to make the laws Toyota wants. And in some cases, get money going toward Toyota (and customers).

 

Good thought questions. The core to my answer is what was the intent, mitigation, and details leading up to the impasse. (As BobW pointed out, sometime the government aggravates the problem instead of providing clear standards.)

The media will cover all opinions on the story. The only thing consistent about most mainstream reporting is misunderstanding the real details and going with the most juicy misinterpretation. In the anti VW position, the NOx factor was not consistently 40x but in the 30s on one unusual measurement, but 40x (all the time?) became the exact number for the juicy position. The VW supporting position was that "rogue software folks" snuck this software into the production line. Repeating that lie requires real obtuseness.

At the other extreme, becoming a fanboy of any for-profit corporation is only going to make the fanboy look obtuse at some point. Toyota has probably not sacrificed their manufacturing discipline yet, but they are resorting to political manipulations quite intensely as of lately. Praise the company when they do good (design the Prius) and criticize them when they do bad (deceptive advertising).

 

at least they cough up some cash. apparently, vdub just got up there and made demand after demand, with no bribes to back them up.

 

Hi Ken !! long time no hear much from your side of the world. Good to have you back - and hope to see you around even more!
The word smiths that carefully crafted the OP's statement says more than one may think. Toyota does not engage in EMISSIONS manipulation. Now if it's something else?

????

 

oh, the hate.

 

The media would have a field day. As for what they would think; it would vary all over the place.

What I would think would depend on my understanding of the problem, the regulation and why Toyota couldn't pass.

The problem could be anything from: very serious and widespread; to minor and rare; to imaginary or false

The regulation could be anything from: well conceived, practical to implement, and well crafted; to ill conceived, expensive, ambiguous; and/or unachievable, incompatible with other regulations; or create greater problems than it could solve such as life safety or environmental hazards.

As we have seen, a manufacturers response could be anything from ethical and brilliant to appalling.