Luxury brands place fuel cell bets

Doubling down on stupid, go team Toyota!

 

Yes, indeed. Hydrogen is a stupid fuel to try to use for personal transport. I'll probably be dead, cold, and buried before I'm proven resoundingly correct with the real-world results you seek (as long as public monies are being siphoned at breakneck speeds).

 

L2 chargers and the like? Probably...I wouldn't be caught dead with a Leaf or an EV with similar range limitations. Today's home chargers will be just fine into the foreseeable future. Overnight charging is sufficient for the vast majority.

There's also likewise no emission benefitwith hydrogen since you can't make it at home. I don't give a flip about lab experiments or what it *could* do in the future. Just dreams and hypotheses.

 

Fuel Cells the Lexus Way!

 

must be that all the worlds manufacturers are just trying to keep the japanese government happy.

 

Now I am completely confused on BMW/ Toyota strategy/relationship when it comes to fuel cells.

BMW plans to market fuel cell sedan after 2020

That sounds like BMW isn't going to release a vehicle until the Toyota relationship expires.

It appears to be using Toyota's fuel cell stack for R&D, and be contributing R&D on storage and perhaps dispensing systems for hydrogen fuel tanks and stations. I'm sure if Toyota is low cost producter of fuel cell stacks bmw will buy them from toyota, but if release is after the agreement ends, they may go with a honda/gm or mercedes/nissan stack if that looks better.

With the rumored LS fuel cell, I thought there would be sharing of batteries, motors, inverters, but this interview seems to say that isn't happening, but might.

The first bmw fuel cell sounds like a 5 or 7 series sedan, similar to a Lexus GS or LS, but bmw always wants performance. This is the target of the tesla model S also. That would require much stronger motors and electrical system than the mirai.

BMW says "For X5 or X7 fuel cell is a good solution"

That sounds like for the BMW SUVs, which should have plenty of room for hydrogen tanks, they may combine electric with fuel cells. A PHEV type design with fuel cells replacing the engine. The 7.1 kwh battery pack of the i8 provides 129 hp, perhaps that combined with a fuel cell the size in the mirai is enough power to move the big SUVs.

BMW seems to be saying they are working on stuff they expect to sell over a decade from now. They are happy the Japanese government is helping fund their R&D. The California governments CARB David Lloyd/Mary Nichols were the biggest pushers of fuel cell vehicles. Fiat seemed to make nichols mad, and she may do regulations specifically to hurt them. Not a good strategy. German government also seems to have some that want a fuel cell push, and bmw/mercedes/vw group want to keep them happy so they keep supporting the diesels.

 

The current, top of the line hydrogen stations already chill to negative 40C. How much lower are 'ultra-low temperatures' exactly?

The German government also has an interest in hydrogen FCEV. As well as one or two Northern European countries. You also shouldn't snub CARB. California is a big market, and the way the ZEV program is currently going, having a compliance FCEV on hand might be a good idea.

 

why all the interest in a tech that can't possibly work like bev?

 

Conspiracy theory time: Because energy self-sufficiency is far more difficult and expensive to attain with H2 than plain old electrons.

 

I think fuel cells in cars can work. I just don't think hydrogen powering them will work for the same reasons we don't use the gas to power an ICE.

I think most of the interest in the hydrogen FCEV is because people want to be able to eat their cake without having too change themselves. There is this public concept of what a car is that provides unhindered freedom to go where ever you wish. People want that, but they also don't want pollution and having to deal with countries that don't like us for fuel. A PHV doesn't completely solve those emission and political issues. A BEV requires changes in personal behavior. But FCEV has the potential to be a solution without the sacrifice.

The BEV will never work for everyone. Which is fine, because it doesn't have too to have an impact. While the ones available now are either too short on range, too expensive, or both, they are here now, and people are buying them. With battery prices improving, there is going to be fewer reasons for people to not at least look into getting one. For those in which the BEV doesn't work, a PHV may be the right balance.

With plug ins available now, and no appearance of going away, I think those patiently waiting for the FCEV have gotten worried, and are making the push for commercialization. The costs simply haven't come down enough on the cars enough to compete with plug ins, and while companies want to make and sell FCEVs, none of them stepped up in the beginning to help with the hydrogen supply questions. It doesn't even appear what is the best way to store the hydrogen onboard has been completely answered. But they are rushing it in fear of plug ins getting too much of a market foothold.

Then there is the other interest in pushing FCEV. One that is the darker side of wanting something with all the pluses and none of the minuses. The base greed of making a quick buck.

Yes, because how messed up would the Middle East be without any money coming in for the oil.

 

why don't they just build a bev, isn't it easier?

 

Who is they? BMW? Nissan? Ford? Mercedes? GM? They all build bevs, and most make phevs. Yes its easier, but it doesn't work well with the dealerhip model.

These companies are all partnered on fcv, but sharinring the R&D as they aren't ready for commercialization yet.

Honda? Hyundai? Both planning on selling more plug-ins than fcv.

Toyota is alone saying plug-ins won't make it, but fcv are the future. THen again even their slidees say in 35 years toyota will sell more plug-ins than fuel cells.

 

I think it is smart for huge, legacy auto manufacturers to have plans for a wide variety of technologies.
Especially if you can get assistance on the tech from governments or partners.

That is why I am still surprised at Toyota talking down plugin vehicles as much as they do.

 

if you didn't believe in the possibility that the technology could work out some day, you wouldn't bother. unless there are other influencing factors.

 

Remember PNGV, where GM, Ford, and Chrysler spent a lot of their own and government money doing R&D on very high efficiency and very expensive to produce hybrid diesels. None of them thought it would work, but Government did, and they gave each of those companies something so they would go along. Gore called it a moon shot. Proponents said they did it, they built prototypes that could get the fuel economy Others called it a boon dongle. The prototypes were too expensive to sell, the emissions would pass an epa test. How many 80 mpg hybrid diesels do you see running around the streets? VW group is selling a handful, but only in Europe.

Honda and Toyota really believe. They just need government money to make it work. Toyota says they are ready now. They are actively "working with" governments in Japan, the US, and Europe to get the support they say will make it work.

Hyundai thinks that if fuel cells take off, they can use it to become big, and get competitive advantage over other car companies. I don't think they really belive, but it is their moon shot ;-) They say they need more government money and 10 more years to make it work

Ford, Mercedes, GM all thought at one point it would work out, and there are proponents in each company. Many in all those companies don't think it will ever work. They like the government money for R&D.

BMW and Nissan they look like they are going along to get along with governments. They want other favors from the governments, why piss them off.

VW group is building prototypes, but saying loudly it won't work, but please be easy on our diesels.