Featured Hyundai IONIQ - Prius competitor?

not what i believe, what yang was quoted as saying in the article.

 

Right now, I'm on a trip out in Wyoming... where the speed-limit is 80. Cruising in the low 80's has yielded 40 MPG averages, despite temperatures around freezing.

It will be fascinating to experience the next-gen Prius on the highway, without plug-supplied electricity. The improved design of hybrid system and body is exciting to anticipate.

 

Looks like AG just had some clumsy editing; with the last line you quoted actually refer to this, preceding line, "On the PHEV model the lighter weight and better highway fuel economy though should help." or some other error along those lines.

It is a different system by the sounds of it, but Hyundai wouldn't just ignore everything they learned with the Sonata's system.

 

Is it the 204 hp VW GOLF GTE Phev for sale in US? The car is getting a quite good sale success (for beeing a quite expensive hybrid ) in EU. That could be a reference on how a 6-speed dual clucth works on a hybrid. We're getting reports on our forum on a couple of Golf Gte, quite interesting.

Thanks a lot for your very interesting contribution. It seems then that a 30 kW battery could be a realistic number for the EV version...
Whatever news you can share it will be appreciated.

 

DSG has regular servicing and not very good long term reliability.
How common are VW Golf DSG problems? - Telegraph

So the first 2-3 years we should expect good reports on dependability.

 

yes, i wonder if hyundai is comparing to gen 3 or 4.

 

We only have the Jetta hybrid in the US, and it rarely comes to my mind when thinking of hybrids. It has a less powerful motor than the Golf GTE, but the rest of the system seems to be the same.

But how close is the hybrid transmission to the DSG in design? Is it dry or wet clutch?
With Honda, the motor is basically built into the tranny.

 

There were no satisfactory infos on the free-wheel glide system achieved trough the use of the clutch, and i was looking to more details. The system works great, it works up to certain (still undefined) steering angles, auto-exclude if the stability control or ABS gets in and can be excluded with the use of a gear like our B.

What is even more interesting is the automatic variable regen on descent: the system keep the speed you have upon releasing the pedal at the beginning of the slope, as a kind of cruise control, increasing the amount of regen to keep the speed constant in time.
Not knowing of that device, quite a few times i've felt on mountin/hill passages to do somehing like that with my Auris using the cruise control, but it's a bit of a mess... not very practical. This is a very clever device...

Actually the article is false In the sense that the VW DSG 7-speed dry clucth is unreliable not only in Asia but all over the planet, particularly in EU. And this is for a built-in problem with the dry clucthes, not really possible to overcome. And what is worse, they lasts a very short time, but the extended warranty is only given in Asia and China where they are trying to get the market and not in EU. And the repairs are bloody expensive too.

Infact, on the Hybrid Audi-Golf, they adopted the old DSG 6-speed oil driven clutches, well tested in many years of production and reliable , but more expensive to build than the 7-speed dry.

 

We are talking of Audi-Golf 204hp PHEV hybrid, a Plug-in, so quite a few things will differ i guess. In EU the plain hybrid is not for sale (i think only in Germany) so i did'nt came across the details, nor i'm sure the 6-speed of the Jetta hybrid is the same of the new PHEVs. About the DSG, just given the answer.

Edit: Gosh, your jetta hybrid have the infamous 7-speed dry....

 

The audi a3 phev which is 204 hp went on sale in California last month. The jetta hybrid appears to have the same 1.4 di single turbo charged 150 hp engine, which is different than the 1.4 tsi turbo on non hybrid jetta's in europe. The jetta hybrid makes 170 hp and indeed has a unique 7 speed dct transmission. The audi a3 phev a 6 speed dct transmission.

The ioniq should be lighter, lower power, and less expensive than the current vws. I find the 1.6L 40% efficient di105 hp atkinson is a better choice than the less efficient more expensive 1.4 L di 150hp mill in the vws, but YMMV. 6 gears should be less expensive than 7 as well. 7 is an oddball number, so there could be advantages or it may be just to be different.

I've read the op, and motor trend, I don't read any official hyundai saying the hybrid systems are different in operation. Do you have a quote? It is a brand new dedicated hybrid/phev/bev design for the car.

 

My guess is gen-3. I couldn't see an automaker drawing attention to a competitors new offering.

 

Dumb question: Is the Hyundai using the same ICE, transmission and electronics as the VW and Audi ? I got lost somewhere in the discussion.

 

sergio's post #199, automotive news, 11th paragraph.

 

Hyundai is using a similar transmission as audi is using in their a3 phev, and a very different one from the jetta hybrid. These are 6 speed dct transmissions without slush boxes (torque converters). The resemble very much manual transmissions, but have two clutches instead of one to shift gears faster. They are some times called automated manuals. Electronics do the shifting instead of your foot on the clutch, and hand on a stick. They are easy to add paddle shifters to, and are used in race cars.

Both vw and hyundai have similar hybrid strategies, and bmw and mercedes do this two. They remove the slush box from that transmission (torque converter), and clutch an electric motor/generator (mg) to the transmission instead. The motor takes the place of the slush box. Then an additional clutch goes between the mg and the engine. The engine still has its starter. If the car wants to engine off while going, the clutch between the mg and engine is released, and the motor stoppped. If the engine turns on in motion then the starter, starts the enegine, which then is electronically sped up to the speed of the motor, then clutched in. This is the difference between this system and honda's IMA.

Hyundai is using a new direct injection (di) 1.6L 105hp gasoline engine with a claimed peak efficiency of 40%. and Atkinson valve timing.

Gen IV prius has a port injected 1.8L 95 hp gasoline engine with claimed peak efficiency of 40% and atkinson valve timing.

gen II volt has a direct injected (di) 1.5L 101 hp gasoline engine that has 12.5:1 compression and otto and atkinson valve timing

vw jetta hybrid and a3 phev have di turbo charged 1.4L 150 hp engines, with otto and miller cycle valve timing.

The vw engine is quite different than the other 3 that are all similar.

Volt and prius engines go through power split devices. The prius uses no clutches, but when the prius and volt and both in the same parellel serial mode the effective transmission is similar. Volt has other modes that are quite different than prius.

VW and hyundai have similar modes, but vw has a more powerful engine, the hyundai will likely need to charge and discharge batteries more. Hyundai ioniq should have lower weight, rolling resistance, and drag, with a more efficient engine, so it should be more efficient.

 

no, it's a whole new system, designed from the ground up. see my post above.

 

Adding in paragraph 10 and 12 for context.
Hyundai: Ioniq highway mpg to top Prius

That is where I went. Yang isn't saying they are not using the same type clutched motor hybrid layout, they are improving the pieces.

Better engine (well more efficient and lower hp and less expensive to build), better transmission (dct versus step, more efficient and shifts faster but costs more to build), more efficient motor. Still basic sonata hybrid but lower weight and maybe drag, and more efficient motor, engine, transmission.

 

what's the difference between starting anew, and applying the best of what we already had? perhaps i'm confused by his translation english. does he mean, 'we've improved on the sonata drive train, instead of using the exact same one'? if so, it's very misleading.

 

Honda's is also a 7 speed, but it appears that they count the motor as first; perhaps because it is used to start moving the car from a stop. I just spent several minutes watching this: Honda Worldwide | Technology Picture Book | Sport Hybrid i-DCD The motor appears to have two different outputs if you pay attention to when 1st and 3rd gear are engaged alone. The odd gears are directly connected to the ICE and motor, and the even ones to the ICE only, but power can flow to and from the motor by taking a more, um, wandering path.

No. They, VW, and Honda's one motor system are just very similar in broad terms. One motor, and ICE, and a dual clutch transmission. I'd discourage calling a dual clutch an automated manual. It technically is, but automated manual is used for single clutch transmissions. They aren't common, but the NA smart fortwo uses one.

I won't discount translation issues. After looking at that Honda diagram, going with a double clutch transmission might have meant designing it from the ground up. The step transmission on the Sonata is essentially the same as on the ICE model, just with the torque converter replaced by the electric motor. So it isn't just optimizing the Sonata's system, like Toyota has been doing with the HSD in the Prius.

 

Think of it as the difference between the gen II and gen III prius. All the parts were different, but from a modular point of view each module did the same function. Going from gen II to gen III increased efficiency of each component (engine, psd, mgs), but each was fairly small. For hyundai the new engine is much more efficient, but ... lower power, the prius went the oposite way, but it is about 10% more powerfull than the gen IV prius engine (both talk about similar efficiency).

The biggest question is on the dct transmission. Gen III psd exhibitted slow changes, choosing efficiency over response time. This is software and electronics, and the initial reviews of the gen IV prius say it should do better. The jetta hybrid's engine and dct provide quick response time. We have yet to see what hyundai does. In 2011 car and driver's review of hyundai's dct said it favored efficiency over response time, and thought its response time was poor compared to the vw transmission. 2012 Hyundai Veloster DCT Road Test - Review - Car and Driver . I assume hyundai has redesigned this transmission for the new hybrid/phev but reliability and responsiveness will await reviews. On paper the transmission should be both more responsive, more efficient, and lighter than the one in the sonata hybrid/phev but also cost more to produce.