The Toyota Mirai (FCV) Thread

yep - after the fact (seeing Tesla's goal, & heading towards it quickly). I'm still hoping Toyota will follow .... which is a bit of irony as Prius is supposed to represent being forward. And FC tech is what some ½century+ process that still proves to be a big money, never quite ready, fossil fuel hungry process.
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Again, specifics are needed.

The goal of "forward" is to penetrate deeper into the market. Decreasing traditional offerings in favor of the new technology is how progress is measured. That's sales. People must change. Whether or not the technological achievement is more advanced than the next automaker misses the point.

Leadership is the ability to get ordinary people to change.

 

Specifically? Toyota's FC lobby is Leading. It's successfully draining R&D $$ that continues, decade after decade, to yield little.
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Prius.

They are building reputation while expanding reach.

Later, when that fuel-cell technology has finally reached a competitive price-point, Toyota will have a well-established market. In the meantime, they are pushing in many directions to advance hydrogen offerings and improve their fuel-cell system. Having potential customers line up is priceless. After all, stirring interest has to come from somewhere.

 

just raised your own issue (specifics) then answered it - the Prius. It IS the best gas burner. The Mirai is not. Such a shame, Toyota offering up a ride more expensive, less practical, and still reliant on the fossil fuel industry not to rehash the many other shortcomings.
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Prius offers a plug. Toyota already sells an E100 engine.

How is that not progress (moving forward) toward the goal of reliance reduction?

 

Prius? Really?
I don't see the Prius as expanding reach. Hybrids have acquired a 3-4% market share, years ago, and then plateaued.
It is the king of using gasoline efficiently. But has not been able to expand the market share of hybrids for years.

Electrics are bringing in customers that would never dream of buying a hybrid. THAT is expanding reach.

 

You're lack of confidence in gen-4 is very disappointing.

 

it is forward movement - but nation wide plugin sales began in 2010. It wasn't a Toyota. Subsequently - other manufacturers began rollouts - nationwide. When Toyota followed - it was for CARB compliancy only. ½ decade later, anxious buyers are still waiting for PiP gen II, hoping it will at LEAST be sold in their state finally - and hoping its ev range will be on par or best the competition. That's my hope too. But after watching Toyota's anti plugin ad, & watching the utmost push to move the Mirai beyond its ungodly costly experimental stage . . . . wouldn't nationwide sales of a genII game changing PiP fly in the face of their most favored coal burning hydrogen project ? Of course! - A great genII will be the death knell to hydrogen. Why pay a minimum of 3X as much for another fossil fuel user like the Mirai if you can get way more for your buck in a nice genII PiP, that runs on infrastructure that won't ad another trillion to our debt, supplying fuel that's more expensive than traditional use of fossil fuels. Such a PiP/goal flys in the face of their FC car. Thus, it'd be schizophrenic for Toyota to put out such a car that would make the Mirai look even worse than it already does. It'd kill their hydrogen goal.
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Like most people questioning Mirai, short-term verses long-term isn't recognized. Or, it's the belief that fuel-cell and EV cannot possibly co-exist.

The only-one-solution mindset continues to be quite a barrier to overcome.

 

Really? I've been cautiously optimistic and have even stated a hope that the gen 4 would help break hybrids out of the 3-4% rut they are in.

Short term? Weren't you one of the people haranguing on EVs for the increased GHG in some areas of the country?
In those cases, you weren't looking at short term, you were looking at 2-5 years in the past term.

Why the different standard for the Miria?

 

Please explain this contradiction: "I don't see the Prius as expanding reach."

 

It's the realist in me.
I am hopeful, but more likely it will take a bigger peice of the pie, without increasing the size of the pie.

 

john, I think we all had hoped that the gen IV would blow us away, and blow away sales numbers. There are a number of nice things with the gen IV, but not much to break it out of the box. When we add in this saudi oil glut, pushing down gas prices. I don't think there is much hope in getting much past those 2013 hybrid numbers when the prius v and c and ford c-max and fuesion out and gas was more.

Is there something you see in the gen IV that we are missing that might break it out. Is there something about the mirai that may be so good that people will build enough stations without lots more tax payer money, and it will sell in any quantity? For the mirai toyota's promising case is 30,000 units world wide in 2020, that is less than 18,000 units in the US. If you are disapointed by leaf or volt sales, the rosy scenario for mirai is that it will sell as well as a bad year 4 years from now.

We all would like hybrid sales to grow. The short term connections of low gas prices and more efficient gasoline non hybrids looks like 2013's 3.2% is close to a near term platau. Maybe we hit 5% in 2020 with cafe rules help and updated other cars, but I don't see much more. Plug-ins at least look to be growing at a fairly rapid rate from a low base.

 

That's the confusion. We have already bought into Prius. We don't share the same priorities. We don't matter. To appeal to others, expansion of reach requires consideration of their criteria... not ours.

Look at it this way, growing the market means appealing to those not already in it. The greatest potential is snapping up those shopping the showroom floor. They are people who couldn't care less if gen-4 delivers more than a solid 50 MPG. As far as they're concerned, that benchmark is so far above the efficiency they currently experience, more doesn't matter. Put a check in that box and move on.

The criteria they'll focus on is what it looks like from the curb, which clearly the new Prius excels at. Do they want a blend-into-the-crowd ordinary look or something that looks sleek & modern? They'll look at what the driver sees behind the wheel. There's 2 impressive screens up on the dashboard, clearly an advanced interface for those drawn to electronics. There's a big screen that's fast and will interact with their phone. There's a wireless charging-pad for the phone too. Also, the cargo capacity & convenience is outstanding, no battery interference whatsoever, just a vast open area with fold-down seats. Aren't those aspects that will stir interest with only a brief look?

Then there's the driving experience. The refinements to the hybrid system combined with the obvious body-stiffness and suspension improvements won't leave potential customers on the fence. Isn't this upgrade what they've been wanting all along?

Other vehicles sell well for similar reasons. Why wouldn't appealing to those same traditional buyers the same way not attract them to Prius?

 

Finally!
I've been trying to get this idea across for years.
I am glad you see the need to expand beyond the gas efficiency.

This is why I still have some hope for the gen 4.
Have you had a chance to test drive one yet?

My concern is that, for the money, there are better option for those that place a higher importance on drive quality, looks, etc won't find the 4th gen appealing.

 

I always have. Each generation brought along improvements to the drive experience. It has never been about just MPG. Heck, the efficiency wasn't even the highest priority either. Emissions got that.

Remember, I have a PHV model. Plugging in to boost along with some EV was another step in the expansion of appeal. There hasn't been a goal of no-gas purity. Improved MPG, but no need to sacrifice for an extreme... like Volt does.

No. Patience is the norm. I've waited a long time for each of the 4 purchases already. The 5th will take some time too.

That implies buyers will place no priority on MPG. Expanding the market means appealing to the priorities in place while also adding high-efficiency into the mix. That's much easier now that hybrids are becoming so well accepted.

Gen-4 seeks new attention. It screams out as being different from the rest. We've already heard comments about how it draws you in the more you see it. Sound familiar?

 

No, that implication was never intended.
What it means, and I'll state this plainly so you don't need to infer, is that MPG is less of a priority than other things.
We will see how many people like it over the next few months I suppose.

 

We still don't know what "better" means or to which vehicles you referred. Notice how I provide specifics to avoid that?

Let's start over. What group of consumers are the target?

 

Really,

I didn't know Tesla outsells Prius - WOW. Then again, I have not heard of ev expanding their measly market share as of late. Care to post up your numbers to back up what you are trying to say?

DBCassidy

John, I don't think he gets it.

DBCassidy