VW Faces $17B Fine for Emissions Scam

The government agencies do not develop the tests free of outside influence:

• Agencies are heavily affected/influenced by the car companies and other special interests who lobby politicians and agencies for tests or the lack thereof that will most favor the interests of those running the companies and their shareholders.
• Politicians looking for votes or acting for special interests try to cut agency funding and influence/control what the agencies do with little understanding and little regard for what is really in the public interest

On the tests themselves:

• There is no one test that will be realistic for all drivers, all locations and all seasons
• A large number of different tests to try to accurately represent all common driving patterns would be impractical and confusing.
• "City", "Highway" and a weighted "Combined" mpg is practical and at least gives an idea of how mpg varies with different conditions. Do we want something similar for each pollutant of concern?
• Does a weighted "Combined Pollutants" limit make sense?
• Does a weighted "Combined Pollutants" rating that triggers potentially very heavy taxes that may vary with the sensitivity of the location for pollutants which are primarily of local concern
• If people are confused now, how receptive will they be to a vastly more complex system that better matches real benefit and local needs (not very receptive, I think)
• How will compliance be verified and what will the penalties be if it is not achieved?
• What about owners who deliberately pollute or fail to prevent it?

 

Yes, the companies have influence over the politicians, but those same politicians still need votes. If the companies were all powerful, there wouldn't be an EPA or car emission testing at all.

The MPG and emission tests are the same, and the EPA ones seem to not be far off from how cars are actually driven. The BMW in the study that caught VW only exceeded the NOx limits on the rolling hills portion of the test route, and then by only a little.

It may not have been clear, by my post in response to Grumpy Cabby, and the question is in regards to the NEDC test. The European fuel economy figures are really good for cars. They are even higher than the old, pre-2008 EPA window sticker values. The EPA city test cycle has a peak speed of 56mph and an average speed of 21.2mph. The NEDC's city peaks at 31mph and averages at 11.4mph.

While I have never been to Europe, I don't think they drive their cars at half the speeds that we do in the US. Their testing is quite out of sync with reality.

Detailed Test Information
Emission Test Cycles: ECE 15 + EUDC / NEDC

 

I was in Germany, Austria, and Czech back in July. They drive faster than us in everyday travel. Seeing them fly by on the Autobahn was impressive. All kinds of vehicles were cruising along at very fast speeds. But what surprised me was how the locals also haul nice person on the local roads. I suppose having the more powerful diesels tends to make that more of a norm.

 

..that's why it seems like powerful EV's may go well there.
I pay a driver or taxi over there if I can, but sometimes its a good haul 1.5 hours to the airport need a good range.

 

Source: VW loses Fla. Lemon Law case - wptv.com

Melnyk has faced major roadblocks since filing a lemon law claim. Volkswagen tried to block the hearing by taking Melnyk to court. A judge ruled against Volkswagen and allowed the hearing to continue.

Then Volkswagen tried to block WPTV from recording the hearing. Volkswagen lost that argument too.

"I'm not intimidated," said the 86 year old Melnyk. "Why would you want to pick on a little guy like me?"

Volkswagen spent several hours trying to pick apart Melnyk's lemon law claim.

"Have you tried to trade in the vehicle?" Volkswagen's attorney asked.

Melnyk had not. Volkswagen claimed the car is not a lemon because Melnyk still drives it.

Melnyk said it's his only car, and the dealership refused to look at it.

In the end, the Florida Lemon Law board agreed that Melnyk was sold a lemon and the car maker should take the car back and give Melnyk $15,000 for it.​

Bob Wilson

Source: Dieselaffäre - VW: Ein Kronzeuge packt aus - Wirtschaft - Süddeutsche.de

. . . Statt dem Vorstand zu offenbaren, dass man dies nicht schaffe, habe man sich für einen Betrug entschieden.

Nach Angaben eines der Mitwirkenden habe es sich um eine Art "Verzweiflungstat" gehandelt. . . .​

Bob Wilson

 

i was thinking the same thing.

 

A better English translation: Dieselgate Crown Witness: Cheating Open Secret At VW

Bob Wilson

 

i hope this guy has proof, because i think horn is worse than the guy he replaced.

if this were gm, horn, aka klutz, would bluster his way to his own demise, then get a golden handshake.

 

I missed this link, and only yesterday I watched it, after being shared by a friend in the Portuguese Prius Forum.
I'll follow you closer from now on.

 

i'm more interested in the article below it about donald trumps father.

 

I think its folly to think that European testing will be in any shape and form as powerful as he EPA. The testing is done by a mishmash of 'Boutique" companies which really tweek the test in order to meet the min standard of emissions. If it wasn't for the discovery of the software beating the dyno test we wouldn't be even discussing this until the accidental discovery of the cheat code embedded within the ECU. Clearly in the USA we KNOW who is the blame but in Europe I think of it as a conglomerate of 'Good Old Boys' clubs in Government working along side the auto industry. Witness lately the activity of some government agencies which wanted to ease the standards instead of comply with the ones they have now. But I feel that there is a rising tide of public consciousness which will address these cheating short comings but the question is how much corruption and how high does it go to make it right for the good of the people?
It disgusts me to no end how deep this rabbit hole really is. Reminds of of Venezuela which could be bringing in big bucks for the people but no...they are mired in corruption and amateur management. Oh well thats a whole new topic- sorry..

 

I really did not understand how some European corruption got embedded until the FIFA arrest took place. Most comments in the various British reporting usually have a lot of anti-American comments (some deserved, some not). But the FIFA arrest brought out nothing but how great it was that the Americans were finally solving a deep European disaster. Huh? Nothing but good comments about the US on one issue. Did not see that coming...but I did not know how much the governments were content to support a criminal enterprise. This seems to be along the same lines. It is only because the American government is doing something that the European governments even bother to say something. (Not to be confused with doing something.)

 

From Fred's TDI.
http://www.computer.org/cms/Computer.org/ComputingNow/docs/mettle-fatigue-security-and-privacy-january-february-2016.pdf

 

otoh, i can understand that, when ze fuhrer tells you to get it done, you get it done. maybe we're being too harsh.

 

• senior officers’ insistence on the pursuit of infeasible objectives with no tolerance for failure;
• suppression of open communication, enforced by an intolerance for bad news and dissenting views;
• creation of software to cheat, rather than solve, engi- neering problems and protection of that software from disclosure as if it were a trade secret; and
• departure from honesty in the chain of command and reckless disregard for the consequences.

Excellent summary, thanks! Then I read the rest of the article which reads like a crime novel. Awesome and well worth the read.

Bob Wilson

 

When reading this, I was bothered by one point. The authors says the "engineering profession" needs to perform a self examination. Huh? This is not an engineering profession shortcoming resulting from engineering decisions. It was a corporate crime resulting from the most senior executives overriding engineering. They describe a lot of the right factors but don't understand how money priorities have always trumped technical priorities in every big corporation, not just VW.

 

I throughly agree:

I also read that part as a call for some sort of 'professional engineer' licensing. In the case of civil engineering, no problem because we don't like building and bridges to fall down. But what I've seen of 'software experts,' I would not go there:

• Java - write once and integrate everywhere and after each release
• Ada - a modern version of Cobol
• Databases - <GERRRRR>
• Object oriented <anything> - macro programming tied to the proprietary macro 'library'

I've just been so disappointed with what passes for 'advanced software' that seems hell-bent on replacing last year's fad with another . . . . "You kids get off of my code!"

Bob Wilson

 

I hear ya..it may be because we are on this side of the pond and they are where they are with the same attitudes in a small form when we had our Revolution and declared ourselves independent of the OLD WAYS...I know America is not perfect but compared to Europe as a whole business wise and politically...I am getting to kinda wonder here. It gets down to the will of the people. If they feel so beat down and feel that their governments cannot produce what they had promised and just let it go..the end result is what we have. I do not know..maybe they need a EURO SPRING...I think some nations are turning around but hopefully that it is not a repeat of the same old same old but in a another name of a political name stamp instead.

Reading about FIFA....I was a just flubbergasted to think that the cheating went so far up. NOT only that but the athletes who got 2nd and below lost out on making money on commercials, endorsements and prize money will not be rendered whole.
I guess clawback is very hard to do in this case as probably the won money has been spent! Just makes you wonder sometimes...

 

I hear ya too.

I think the reason is that America is made up of people who wanted change, wanted to try different things or way, who will try new products but won't stand for any ****. The "I wonder what's the other side of that mountain" attitude. It's in your dna, which is why you left Europe (originally) and elsewhere and took the chance on a better life in a new country.

In Europe it's the old ways, the "it's always been done like this attitude" that seems to prevail. "I love this town but I've never lived anywhere else" which is predominently in our dna.

VW should be punished for what they did - effectively polluting the population - as 1 in 4 cars here is part of the VW Group and 1 in 2 of those is a diesel. But nothing will happen, it'll be business as usual. The dna of the German is that they are never wrong.

 

that sounds right. it's not all good though, we still have donald trump.