Elon Musk knocks hydrogen, ruffles feathers

The Volt was never ZEV rated. When it first arrived, it wasn't even AT-PZEV. Remember, that first year it didn't qualify for HOV stickers and the Ca rebate. Why The Chevy Volt Doesn’t Qualify for California $5,000 Rebate | PluginCars.com
GM didn't start earning ZEV credits until they released the Spark EV. Until then, they were buying them. Tesla Leads Sellers Of ZEV Credits In Past Year, GM Leads As A Buyer - Inside EVs

BEVx is because of horse trading between CARB and BMW. BMW didn't want to lose out on any credits by having the i3 REX categorized as a PHEV. The moronic and corrupt at CARB felt someone spending $45k+ on a plug in would never plug it in, and just drive around on a 600cc motorcycle engine with maybe 98 miles of tank range. So BMW agreed to reduce that gasoline range by 20 miles, and hobble CS performance in order to get some ZEV credits from those sold.

19mpg<25mpg<52mpg
So it emits more carbon than the average new vehicle sold, and even more than your Prius benchmark.

But if you want to shuffle around goal posts and definitions, then we should be using the Cruze for making judgements on the Volt.
The combined MPG of the Cruze ranges from 27 to 33. The Volt gets 42mpg combined in CS mode, and about 38mpg ghg equivalent worst case when using grid power for EV in the US.

 

In case you forgot...

The statement was that there are hybrids that are dirtier than ICE cars.

Your reply was "name one". Not, name a comparable car, nor name one cleaner than the Prius.

He named a number of ICE cars than are cleaner than a number of hybrids.

If you want to change the qualifiers, you need to state such.
His point was that some hybrid vehicles are dirtier than some ICE vehicles.

The original statement stands as true.

 

You've been using the Prius bench mark for plug ins in general, but fine.

The Lexus LS 600h site lists the Mercedes-Benz S550e PHEV and Porsche Panamera S E-hybrid(PHEV) as its top competitors. They have a CS combined fuel economy of 26mpg and 25mpg. The ICE Panamera S is one mpg better than the Lexus, and the S550 with AWD is one worse. They are both large cars to the LS's midsize, and start around $20k less. For those that don't want a large car, they can find luxury sedans with AWD that do better than LS in fuel economy.

There is also the Model S as competitor to the LS. Though the Lexus site doesn't let you select Tesla for comparison.

That's why I used the Cruze. It uses the same platform, and many people that looked at the Volt bought it in the past. The new 2016 Cruze is rated 35mpg combined, which leaves the Volt still better on ghg no matter where it is driven in the US. Then new Cruze shrank to compact, so the Volt is now bigger. GM is still making the previous Cruze, labeled as the Limited, if you want more space, but it is rated lower in economy.(see my post above)

The Corolla is another like comparison to the Volt. It is rated 32mpg and 34mpg for the Eco combined.

It was in response to your comment that their are plug ins that are dirtier(on certain grids) than hybrids.

And using the Prius vs Volt makes the Volt look bad. But Volt to Cruze is more like to like as LS600h L to LS460 L than Volt to Prius.

So what is it? Like to like, or whatever favors your point of view?

You still don't get it. The plug in credit was also about fostering the plug in and battery industry within the US. The plug in credit didn't get Toyota to make the Prius in the US, so why would the US Congress again craft a law that favors them again?

Let's same there was a new hybrid credit. The car development cycle is long. It would not have greatly sped up the release of new models. With R&D resources diverted to the Mirai and hydrogen, it would not have lead to Toyota reducing the component costs of the hybrid system any faster than they are already achieving.

The incentive would help sell cars, but when they ended, so would the sales. Leaving the total number of hybrids on the road not much different than they would have been without the incentives. Leaving us basically nothing for the investment. The batteries for plug ins would still be expensive. With fewer plug ins there would also be less investment in charging infrastructure.

So we'll get a peak in hybrid sales. Then people go back to buying plain ICEs with plug ins being costing more than they do now, and likely only sold in California for all of them. How does that help reduce our long term GHG emissions?

Only if you can get someone considering a Volt to buy a Prius. That is the issue with using the Prius as the benchmark. The majority of people are just buying the Cruze or Corolla. Take away the plug in credit for the Volt, and more people will buy those models over the Prius.

 

We really do not have an updated energy plan to define what the Country is looking for.

I'd say the issue has gone from bipartisan emergency shortage scares in 2007 when Plug-Ins and Alt Fuels were first subsidized (peak oil and no gas), to now, with the shortages long gone, more of a political choice as to what directions we should be headed.

Meanwhile alternate fuels died an ugly death, so Congress subbed with more corn ethanol. USA/Ca./Congress/Obama tried to make a go of electric vehicles with USA as the hub of Plug_in production. That has been more successful than alt fuels but still probably needing US gov't support/mandates/etc. to keep going. Which is basically what Elon is saying he want the focus on Plug_ins.

 

When you have a losing argument, why not keep moving the goal posts. The best selling state for the prius by far is where plug-ins beat it hands down on emissions.

That is why carb head Mary Nichols used Indiana as the state where fcv would beat plug-ins. Indiana is cold and full of old coal power plants. If you assign all their pollution to the few plug-ins in the state, well those plug-ins sure look ugly. A tesla S 90 kwh is going to spew 300 g/mile of co2, almost as high as the Lexus gsh's 344. That is the highest ghg tesla model S. Now suposedly if someone built a fuel cell sports sedan and ran hydrogen station in indiana maybe they could beat that model S there, but .... they probably won't, and the model 3 should use less electricity still but is not as efficient as an i3. Oops. What were we comparing again? Yes a gen IV prius will produce less ghg in indiana, but it will produce 50% more ghg in california where, IIRC 30% of the prii and 45% of the us tesla's are sold. Given the distribution, my guess is the much faster more luxurious tesla beats out hybrids for their owners given that so many live in california, oregon, and washington, or have solar or wind for electricity. That prius will beat it in indiana though, for sure.